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 Post subject: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:15 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:16 pm
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So I have always seen two things as a contradiction and I hope someone can set me straight. People say to not look at the barrels the beads etc and to look at the clay. But then say xx ft of lead. How am I supposed to do that if I don’t look at the barrel?
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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advise
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:57 am 
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Can understand your confusion, many shooters are baffled by such advice, particularly those that come to shotgun sports from other shooting disciplines. When I was learning to shoot a handgun someone advised me to "focus" on the sights, particularly the front sight and let the target blur, that too sounds confusing but improved my scores.
When shooting a shotgun you "see" the barrel but only in your peripheral vision, your "focus" must be on the target, eventually your brain develops a data base that it will apply to target presentations seen previously allowing application of forward allowance without thinking about the process. Hope my description is of some help rather than adding confusion. Give some thought to taking a lesson from a pro, they will easier to understand rather than trying to pick this up from shooting buddies no matter how well intentioned. {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advise
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:54 am 
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If you are throwing a football to a running receiver, the amount you have to lead them depends on their speed, angle relative to you, and distance. Someone can tell you lead him by 20 feet and you’ll understand, right? Het you never look at your arm or the ball. Same with a shotgun. Learn to mechanically put the shot where you want it and look at the bird.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advise
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:00 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:46 pm
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toptechX6 wrote:
When shooting a shotgun you "see" the barrel but only in your peripheral vision, your "focus" must be on the target, ...
Exactly. And this is why a shotgun should fit you perfectly, or as perfectly as possible, and why your mount has to be perfect. You should be able to pick a "target", e.g., in a room or somewhere outside, close your eyes, mount the shotgun (unloaded), open your eyes and your shotgun should be pointing at the target.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advise
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:39 am 
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A drill that's helped many, many folks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BCLskPpxqs


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advise
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:17 pm
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Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex
The way my instructor illustrated it to me is: “When driving your car, you are focused on what is ahead. You don’t see the hood ornament (I.e., the front of the hood), but you know exactly where it is.” You see the front of the hood by your peripheral vision; however, you are focused upon where you are driving.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advise
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:37 am 
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Tackdriver--the terminology used in shotgun instruction is awful and all kinds of adages get in the way of good communication.

Look at the target. Do not look at the bbls. See them only in peripheral vision. Practice this as you will need to overcome the natural tendency to look at the closest moving object. The ability to "not look at the bbls" is one you'll need to train yourself to do.

Make sure your gun fits OK. Perfect fit is usually unobtainable. Make sure you are behind the rib and as comfortable as possible. Do not fret over slightly off fit.

Practice .

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advise
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:40 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
Posts: 278
The Rattler wrote:
The way my instructor illustrated it to me is: “When driving your car, you are focused on what is ahead. You don’t see the hood ornament (I.e., the front of the hood), but you know exactly where it is.” You see the front of the hood by your peripheral vision; however, you are focused upon where you are driving.

Yes, but that is a lousy analogy. Somewhat worse than the football and baseball analogies. When driving a car, you move your head away from the direction the car is pointing. That is huge. Also you don’t stare ahead of you in order to point the car in a different direction than you are looking, which is what OP asked about WRT hitting shotgun targets.

Everybody seems to know that you point the gun somewhere else (ahead) than where you are looking at the target. But no one, no one, can explain exactly how they do it. The most common answer was repeated here: take a lesson and the coach will reveal the secret. Well let me tell you something. The coach does not ever reveal the secret. Just as has been done here. They tell you to look hard at the target, and all will be well with the world. Hardly a useful coaching approach. WHAT IS THE MECHANISM, REGARDING THE SHOOTER’S EYES AND HANDS, OF MOVING THE GUN FORWARD ALONG THE TARGET’S FLIGHT PATH WHILE KEEPING THE EYES POINTED BACK AT THE CLAY WITHOUT DISTURBING THE SANCTITY OF THE FIXED MOUNT POSITION WITH THE DOMINANT EYE ALIGNED WITH THE RIB? How easy could a question be? And yet, no one either can or will answer it. Any takers?

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:54 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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Or perhaps ‘some’ won’t listen, or accept the answer?


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advise
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:17 am 
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Location: Port St Lucie FL
Yes, but that is a lousy analogy. Somewhat worse than the football and baseball analogies. When driving a car, you move your head away from the direction the car is pointing. That is huge. Also you don’t stare ahead of you in order to point the car in a different direction than you are looking, which is what OP asked about WRT hitting shotgun targets.

Everybody seems to know that you point the gun somewhere else (ahead) than where you are looking at the target. But no one, no one, can explain exactly how they do it. The most common answer was repeated here: take a lesson and the coach will reveal the secret. Well let me tell you something. The coach does not ever reveal the secret. Just as has been done here. They tell you to look hard at the target, and all will be well with the world. Hardly a useful coaching approach. WHAT IS THE MECHANISM, REGARDING THE SHOOTER’S EYES AND HANDS, OF MOVING THE GUN FORWARD ALONG THE TARGET’S FLIGHT PATH WHILE KEEPING THE EYES POINTED BACK AT THE CLAY WITHOUT DISTURBING THE SANCTITY OF THE FIXED MOUNT POSITION WITH THE DOMINANT EYE ALIGNED WITH THE RIB? How easy could a question be? And yet, no one either can or will answer it. Any takers?[/quote]


From my first post:

eventually your brain develops a data base that it will apply to target presentations seen previously allowing application of forward allowance without thinking about the process.

Because we each view forward allowance differently it is not as simple as saying "do this with your hands" while looking at the target. There is an element of art to shotgun mastery, a piano teacher can tell a student which keys to strike to play a tune, but that will not make them a virtuoso.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:25 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
Posts: 278
Rooster booster wrote:
Or perhaps ‘some’ won’t listen, or accept the answer?

Of course that is always possible. But you have to admit it is not answer to the question, but rather another evasion.

In fairness, let’s remember I am not really the one asking the question. It is OP. Forget that you think it has been previously answered for someone else (it actually hasn’t) and kindly repeat it for OP. Surely that is not too hard. One would think that such self-awareness of exactly how you hit targets, which skill by the way I admire, and also the process of explaining it would be as valuable to you as to the person asking the question. Nothing cements knowledge in a person’s brain quite as well as teaching the information to someone else. With that in mind, what say you? Exactly how do you do it? How would you recommend that OP do it?

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5870
Ok......with most thing eye/hand coordinated, you need to be aware of how best to ‘guide’ to get the desired result.

With a moving object, your best information will come from being primarily focused on the moving object you either want to ‘hit’ or ‘miss’. Either way, primary focus on the object, secondary ‘awareness’ of your barrels, the car you’re driving, the pick one.....

That’s the only way I could explain it over the internet. Shooting is learned at the range, preferably with qualified help, much like anything else that is a physical skill.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:36 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
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Rooster booster wrote:
Ok......with most thing eye/hand coordinated, you need to be aware of how best to ‘guide’ to get the desired result.

With a moving object, your best information will come from being primarily focused on the moving object you either want to ‘hit’ or ‘miss’. Either way, primary focus on the object, secondary ‘awareness’ of your barrels, the car you’re driving, the pick one.....

That’s the only way I could explain it over the internet. Shooting is learned at the range, preferably with qualified help, much like anything else that is a physical skill.

Thanks for that, seriously. It helps to get the us to the meat of the conversation.

The question is this: if you adhere to the universally accepted principals for mounting and pointing a shotgun, which guarantees you will hit what you are looking at, how do you shoot in front of the target to account for required lead? If you lock into the mount as taught, you cannot possibly apply lead to shoot in front of a target. In an analoguous sport like throwing a football the arm is not in a fixed relationship to the eyes, so you can look at the receiver while throwing in front of him. Another good analogy is shooting a pistol from the hip at a moving target. The hand and arm are not locked to the eyes. You can follow the target with your eyes yet follow in front of it with the gun. But a shotgun is rigorously mounted so that the dominant eye is aligned with the rib. What novices like OP often ask is how and when do you disconnect the eyes from the gun in order that the gun shoots ahead of where you are looking? That is the mystery which none of the few top coaches I have had the privilege to take lessons from have ever discussed.

Shotgunners don't like to talk about physics, but, of course, that is the crux of the issue. You have to lead the target. I see a few ways to do it. The first two allow you to keep looking primarily at the target as you say provides the best information. I have no doubt you are right about that. You can keep you face rigidly attached to the stock but roll your eyes in their sockets away from their alignment with the rib to keep them on the target while the gun is pointing ahead of it. Or you can keep you eyes fixed in their sockets but roll/slide your face on the stock to keep looking at the target while the gun is pointing ahead of it. One way or the other you have to break the rule about aligning your iris/pupil with the rib. I guess you could even do a hybrid of the two. The third way involves breaking a different rule, the one about looking primarily at the target. You just look primarily at the place you want the shot to intercept the target and keep the target secondarily in your peripheral vision. Then you can keep your eye aligned with the rib and the gun can, in fact, continue to point exactly where you are looking. Bingo, you can hit exactly what you are looking at.

I'm not recommending any of these ways of doing it. I'm just trying to think of all the ways of applying lead with a mounted shotgun. And I'm asking what do YOU do? And if you happen to know, what do other folks do? One way or another in order to lead the target, you have to disconnect the eyes from the target or the gun from the target. It has to be something like this, because otherwise you will just keep shooting behind the target. You know, physics.

Thanks for talking to me about this.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:25 pm
Posts: 2318
Location: Attica, Mi
mois, your last example is the way I shoot. I look down the barrels [ SxS ] through the bead at the spot ahead of the bird I want the shot to go. I learned to shoot skeet first to find out how far ahead to look and applied it to SCs. All the games except trap are shot gun down and it's mounted ahead of the bird. A pre-mounted gun is used for trap shooting and because the bird beats the gun I just look at the bird and because I'm swinging the gun faster than the bird the lead is built in. It just takes some shooting for everything to work itself out. It's more of a timing issue, at least for me. If I start looking ahead in trap, because the leads are so small, I'll over lead everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
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bladesmith wrote:
mois, your last example is the way I shoot. I look down the barrels [ SxS ] through the bead at the spot ahead of the bird I want the shot to go. I learned to shoot skeet first to find out how far ahead to look and applied it to SCs. All the games except trap are shot gun down and it's mounted ahead of the bird. A pre-mounted gun is used for trap shooting and because the bird beats the gun I just look at the bird and because I'm swinging the gun faster than the bird the lead is built in. It just takes some shooting for everything to work itself out. It's more of a timing issue, at least for me. If I start looking ahead in trap, because the leads are so small, I'll over lead everything.

Thanks. I appreciate your candor.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:36 pm 
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moishepipick wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
Ok......with most thing eye/hand coordinated, you need to be aware of how best to ‘guide’ to get the desired result.

With a moving object, your best information will come from being primarily focused on the moving object you either want to ‘hit’ or ‘miss’. Either way, primary focus on the object, secondary ‘awareness’ of your barrels, the car you’re driving, the pick one.....

That’s the only way I could explain it over the internet. Shooting is learned at the range, preferably with qualified help, much like anything else that is a physical skill.

Thanks for that, seriously. It helps to get the us to the meat of the conversation.

The question is this: if you adhere to the universally accepted principals for mounting and pointing a shotgun, which guarantees you will hit what you are looking at, how do you shoot in front of the target to account for required lead? If you lock into the mount as taught, you cannot possibly apply lead to shoot in front of a target. In an analoguous sport like throwing a football the arm is not in a fixed relationship to the eyes, so you can look at the receiver while throwing in front of him. Another good analogy is shooting a pistol from the hip at a moving target. The hand and arm are not locked to the eyes. You can follow the target with your eyes yet follow in front of it with the gun. But a shotgun is rigorously mounted so that the dominant eye is aligned with the rib. What novices like OP often ask is how and when do you disconnect the eyes from the gun in order that the gun shoots ahead of where you are looking? That is the mystery which none of the few top coaches I have had the privilege to take lessons from have ever discussed.

Shotgunners don't like to talk about physics, but, of course, that is the crux of the issue. You have to lead the target. I see a few ways to do it. The first two allow you to keep looking primarily at the target as you say provides the best information. I have no doubt you are right about that. You can keep you face rigidly attached to the stock but roll your eyes in their sockets away from their alignment with the rib to keep them on the target while the gun is pointing ahead of it. Or you can keep you eyes fixed in their sockets but roll/slide your face on the stock to keep looking at the target while the gun is pointing ahead of it. One way or the other you have to break the rule about aligning your iris/pupil with the rib. I guess you could even do a hybrid of the two. The third way involves breaking a different rule, the one about looking primarily at the target. You just look primarily at the place you want the shot to intercept the target and keep the target secondarily in your peripheral vision. Then you can keep your eye aligned with the rib and the gun can, in fact, continue to point exactly where you are looking. Bingo, you can hit exactly what you are looking at.

I'm not recommending any of these ways of doing it. I'm just trying to think of all the ways of applying lead with a mounted shotgun. And I'm asking what do YOU do? And if you happen to know, what do other folks do? One way or another in order to lead the target, you have to disconnect the eyes from the target or the gun from the target. It has to be something like this, because otherwise you will just keep shooting behind the target. You know, physics.

Thanks for talking to me about this.


All I can say is what I see......I always focus hard on the target, and am more ‘aware of’ than ‘see’ my barrel in relationship to the target. I can tell you lots about what features I’m seeing on a target, but can only tell you there’s a dark shadowy thing, that is my gun.

If you changed my bead color/configuration for every shot I’ve ever taken, I wouldn’t notice. That’s what I ‘see’, YMMV.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:38 pm 
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If I didn’t focus hard on the target there would be a lot of unbroken clays and more live grouse than there are now.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:57 pm 
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Keeping your eyes firmly fixed down the rib of the gun instead of looking at the target is aiming. I think most good sporting shooters build lead through gun speed, pulling through or away from the target they have matched speed with through looking at the target. I know some shots require sustained lead, but that lead is also determined by watching the target. I don’t know a single decent competitive shooter that aims down the rib.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
Posts: 278
Rooster booster wrote:
moishepipick wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
Ok......with most thing eye/hand coordinated, you need to be aware of how best to ‘guide’ to get the desired result.

With a moving object, your best information will come from being primarily focused on the moving object you either want to ‘hit’ or ‘miss’. Either way, primary focus on the object, secondary ‘awareness’ of your barrels, the car you’re driving, the pick one.....

That’s the only way I could explain it over the internet. Shooting is learned at the range, preferably with qualified help, much like anything else that is a physical skill.

Thanks for that, seriously. It helps to get the us to the meat of the conversation.

The question is this: if you adhere to the universally accepted principals for mounting and pointing a shotgun, which guarantees you will hit what you are looking at, how do you shoot in front of the target to account for required lead? If you lock into the mount as taught, you cannot possibly apply lead to shoot in front of a target. In an analoguous sport like throwing a football the arm is not in a fixed relationship to the eyes, so you can look at the receiver while throwing in front of him. Another good analogy is shooting a pistol from the hip at a moving target. The hand and arm are not locked to the eyes. You can follow the target with your eyes yet follow in front of it with the gun. But a shotgun is rigorously mounted so that the dominant eye is aligned with the rib. What novices like OP often ask is how and when do you disconnect the eyes from the gun in order that the gun shoots ahead of where you are looking? That is the mystery which none of the few top coaches I have had the privilege to take lessons from have ever discussed.

Shotgunners don't like to talk about physics, but, of course, that is the crux of the issue. You have to lead the target. I see a few ways to do it. The first two allow you to keep looking primarily at the target as you say provides the best information. I have no doubt you are right about that. You can keep you face rigidly attached to the stock but roll your eyes in their sockets away from their alignment with the rib to keep them on the target while the gun is pointing ahead of it. Or you can keep you eyes fixed in their sockets but roll/slide your face on the stock to keep looking at the target while the gun is pointing ahead of it. One way or the other you have to break the rule about aligning your iris/pupil with the rib. I guess you could even do a hybrid of the two. The third way involves breaking a different rule, the one about looking primarily at the target. You just look primarily at the place you want the shot to intercept the target and keep the target secondarily in your peripheral vision. Then you can keep your eye aligned with the rib and the gun can, in fact, continue to point exactly where you are looking. Bingo, you can hit exactly what you are looking at.

I'm not recommending any of these ways of doing it. I'm just trying to think of all the ways of applying lead with a mounted shotgun. And I'm asking what do YOU do? And if you happen to know, what do other folks do? One way or another in order to lead the target, you have to disconnect the eyes from the target or the gun from the target. It has to be something like this, because otherwise you will just keep shooting behind the target. You know, physics.

Thanks for talking to me about this.


All I can say is what I see......I always focus hard on the target, and am more ‘aware of’ than ‘see’ my barrel in relationship to the target. I can tell you lots about what features I’m seeing on a target, but can only tell you there’s a dark shadowy thing, that is my gun.

If you changed my bead color/configuration for every shot I’ve ever taken, I wouldn’t notice. That’s what I ‘see’, YMMV.

I hear you. I’m not suggesting you have to look at or see the barrel. I just want to know what is the mechanism for moving it independently of your eyes. And without seeing the barrel how do you know that it is pointing to the right place. As I’ve said before, I know you can do it. I just don’t understand how.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:20 pm 
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Posts: 278
drawdc wrote:
Keeping your eyes firmly fixed down the rib of the gun instead of looking at the target is aiming. I think most good sporting shooters build lead through gun speed, pulling through or away from the target they have matched speed with through looking at the target. I know some shots require sustained lead, but that lead is also determined by watching the target. I don’t know a single decent competitive shooter that aims down the rib.

Well, Churchill notwithstanding, it is physically impossible to swing the gun fast enough to have it pointing at the target (look hard at the target) when the trigger is pulled and build enough lead before the shot exits the muzzle to hit a fast crosser. Brister proved that. The only explanation is that the eyes have been disconnected from the rib, i.e. the direction the barrel is pointing. But exactly as you just suggested, that fact is not realized by most shooters. All I’m asking is what do you do with your eyes to keep looking at the target when the rib and barrels are pointing ahead of it. I know I am beating this to death, but I just can’t get over that “everyone” (more or less) does it, but no one can say how. That is just weird.



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