ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:41 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:04 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:58 pm
Posts: 1418
Location: Oklahoma
Are all 70% patterns, regardless of choke, equally effective at breaking targets? This is assuming you are using the same gauge (12ga), payload (1 1/8 oz), shot type (lead), and shot size (#7 ½).

So, if your barrel/choke/ammo combo will shoot a full choke percentage (70%), is there any difference in target breaking performance between a LM choke with quality ammo (that shoots 70% patterns) and a LF choke with cheaper ammo (that shoots 70% patterns)?

Here’s an example to consider:

12 GA 2 3/4" WINCHESTER AA HEAVY TARGET LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (377 pellets) @ 1200 fps

12 GA 2 3/4" REMINGTON GUN CLUB TARGET LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (375 pellets) @ 1200 fps

Patterning results from a 12-gauge Browning Citori with 28" Invector-plus barrels using Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, in-shell pellet count average of five, and choke constriction from a bore gauge).

40 YARDS
Win AA HVY 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (377 pellets) – LM (.016) / pattern 264 (70%)
Rem Gun Club 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (375 pellets) – LF (.030) / pattern 263 (70%)

Does one combo perform “better” at breaking targets than the other?

Assuming all patterns have gaussian distribution, should there be any performance difference?

Interested in your thoughts!




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:45 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
Posts: 278
No, they are not all equal. The distributions of densities of shot across the patterns varies widely. If you care enough to shoot the very best, you have to demonstrate a specific result with a specific combination. Not to say that it is impossible to find what you want. Far from it. But you can’t make any assumptions. Now if liking the results you get shooting a combination of gun, choke, and ammo at real targets is all that matters to you, then retract your question. Just do what works on the clays course. But if you want to know in detail and specifically which combo provides the largest “kill” zone, you have to show it on the pattern board.

Gaussian distribution is where your assumption fails. The variability is huge. Gil Ash has done a lot of very excellent work to show that the size of the zone in the pellet distribution that is likely to break a target, the kill zone, can be totally surprising and defies prediction. Different chokes may give similar zones even though that surprises you. Different brands of chokes may or may not. Different ammo may or may not. Read his articles on the subject which, unfortunately, I can’t link you to. But he will I’m sure he glad to provide them on request.

Briefly put, the decision is yours. Is effective for your purposes good enough, or do you want absolutely optimum. The effort required is very different for the two choices.

_________________
Morris


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:02 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:27 am
Posts: 8186
Location: Silicon Valley
As far as what an effective pattern is, I believe one should look at a smaller, 24" circle as there's a lot of variability in the outer 6" fringe that has holes large enough for clays to easily escape; not so much inside 24". So to answer the OP question, I would say that if the pellet distribution/densities were the same for 24", then yes, for all intents and purposes those two listed options will perform equally on the target.

_________________
Jack
NSCA #617422

When the mind is right, the body will find a way...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:36 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:36 pm
Posts: 1658
Location: Northeast Ohio
[quote="JacksBack"]As far as what an effective pattern is, I believe one should look at a smaller, 24" circle as there's a lot of variability in the outer 6" fringe that has holes large enough for clays to easily escape; not so much inside 24". So to answer the OP question, I would say that if the pellet distribution/densities were the same for 24", then yes, for all intents and purposes those two listed options will perform equally on the target.[/quote

]
Yep. Core matters. Both shells are premium hard shot. Core is always the most consistent part of a pattern. I'm betting if you pattern 50 each of these shells (or ten) and analyze them as efficiently as you always do, you'll find no difference worth ever thinking about again.

By the way, a hearty thank you from all of us for your great testing and reporting, past and future. Your work is top notch and appreciated by everyone who sees them.

Especially lazy guys like me!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:17 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am
Posts: 2431
Location: Central NH
Grouse Gunner wrote:
Yep. Core matters. Both shells are premium hard shot. Core is always the most consistent part of a pattern. I'm betting if you pattern 50 each of these shells (or ten) and analyze them as efficiently as you always do, you'll find no difference worth ever thinking about again.

By the way, a hearty thank you from all of us for your great testing and reporting, past and future. Your work is top notch and appreciated by everyone who sees them.

Especially lazy guys like me!


I don't consider Gun Clubs to have premium shot, which is why it takes a light full choke to get the same percentage as the AA using a light mod. The AA does have premium shot. If Joe had reversed the chokes there would be a huge difference.

I bet if Joe had counted the core, and the outer ring, a difference in density would be seen. In this case the Gun Club's outer ring might be dense enough to be more effective than the AA's outer ring.

Interesting question Joe.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:31 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 27050
Location: Plainfield, IL
Joe Hunter wrote:
Are all 70% patterns, regardless of choke, equally effective at breaking targets? This is assuming you are using the same gauge (12ga), payload (1 1/8 oz), shot type (lead), and shot size (#7 ½).

So, if your barrel/choke/ammo combo will shoot a full choke percentage (70%), is there any difference in target breaking performance between a LM choke with quality ammo (that shoots 70% patterns) and a LF choke with cheaper ammo (that shoots 70% patterns)?


As you know, no two patterns are identical. Further, 70% of what? Higher antimony shells loaded of the same shot diameter have more pellets as antimony is not nearly as dense as lead: 6.684 g /cm-3.

Higher quality shells are also more consistent. Pattern percentages may vary 20% or so shot to shot, the better shells less than 10% shot to shot. When you pull the trigger on a promo load, is that shell the one +20% pattern percentage or -20% from the shot before?

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:45 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:31 pm
Posts: 2451
hmmmm....me thinks the pattern doesn't care about choke constriction

_________________
Never sell a gun you shoot well, no matter how ugly or unpopular.
Copyright 2020 by SEB7515. All Rights Reserved.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:01 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 7:19 pm
Posts: 1942
Location: Indian Head Country Wisconsin
I guess for me I would want to know what happens with each at 30 yards and 50 yards with same choke. Sporting clays are rarely at exactly 40 yards. Gil’s data shows that a “mod” choke has a Larger kill pattern that develops sooner and tends to last longer than other chokes in the sweet spot yardages of sporting targets. I presume the AA is gonna hang together longer after 40 yards due to less pellet deformation as less choke was needed to squeeze it to 70%. So on that basis, it’s the better pattern as it should have a slightly larger kill zone under 40 yards too. That said, I’m a cheapie and I choke the cheap shells more and shoot them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:32 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:07 pm
Posts: 2327
I use Gun Clubs on close tgts. when I don't want to change chokes, and did it today in a Main Event and it worked well. Not close enough for a spreader, but good enough for the Gun Clubs.

Was shooting in a squad behind a former National Champ. and numerous State Championships and he shot the AA Super Sport, 1 1/8 oz. @ 1300 fps. in an OU. Cannot argue with his skins but man, you talk about a heavy dose for 100 tgts. in an OU in 90 degree plus heat, it's got to take you down.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:50 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
Posts: 278
4th. down wrote:
I use Gun Clubs on close tgts. when I don't want to change chokes, and did it today in a Main Event and it worked well. Not close enough for a spreader, but good enough for the Gun Clubs.

Was shooting in a squad behind a former National Champ. and numerous State Championships and he shot the AA Super Sport, 1 1/8 oz. @ 1300 fps. in an OU. Cannot argue with his skins but man, you talk about a heavy dose for 100 tgts. in an OU in 90 degree plus heat, it's got to take you down.

You would think.

_________________
Morris


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:20 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:07 pm
Posts: 2327
Patently Obvious wrote:
I guess for me I would want to know what happens with each at 30 yards and 50 yards with same choke. Sporting clays are rarely at exactly 40 yards. Gil’s data shows that a “mod” choke has a Larger kill pattern that develops sooner and tends to last longer than other chokes in the sweet spot yardages of sporting targets. I presume the AA is gonna hang together longer after 40 yards due to less pellet deformation as less choke was needed to squeeze it to 70%. So on that basis, it’s the better pattern as it should have a slightly larger kill zone under 40 yards too. That said, I’m a cheapie and I choke the cheap shells more and shoot them.


"I choke the cheap shells more and shoot them." Agree, it has its place, especially for practice.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:54 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:58 pm
Posts: 1418
Location: Oklahoma
moishepipick wrote:
But if you want to know in detail and specifically which combo provides the largest “kill” zone, you have to show it on the pattern board.


Thanks for your comments. I have photo's of the mean pattern (or as close to mean as I could get) of both loads that could be posted, if someone would post them for me. Hopefully, that would shed some light on this topic.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:00 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:58 pm
Posts: 1418
Location: Oklahoma
RandyWakeman wrote:

As you know, no two patterns are identical. Further, 70% of what? Higher antimony shells loaded of the same shot diameter have more pellets as antimony is not nearly as dense as lead: 6.684 g /cm-3.

Higher quality shells are also more consistent. Pattern percentages may vary 20% or so shot to shot, the better shells less than 10% shot to shot. When you pull the trigger on a promo load, is that shell the one +20% pattern percentage or -20% from the shot before?


Thanks for your comments Randy. I realize it's only a 5-shot sample for each load, and the standard deviation (SD) is higher for the cheaper Gun Club load over the premium AA load, 14.486 compared to 10.647.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:12 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:58 pm
Posts: 1418
Location: Oklahoma
Patently Obvious wrote:
I presume the AA is gonna hang together longer after 40 yards due to less pellet deformation as less choke was needed to squeeze it to 70%.


Thanks for your thoughts PO. I didn't shoot these two loads/chokes at other yardages, so I can't say what differences there may be at other yardages. I think your assumption about the AA holding together longer due to less pellet deformation may have merit though.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:50 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:58 pm
Posts: 1418
Location: Oklahoma
RandyWakeman wrote:
As you know, no two patterns are identical. Further, 70% of what? Higher antimony shells loaded of the same shot diameter have more pellets as antimony is not nearly as dense as lead: 6.684 g /cm-3.


I probably should have title this topic as "Are these 70% patterns equal?"

Anyway, I selected the two loads listed since they were essentially the same internally as far as payload, pellet size and pellet count and they patterned nearly identically at 40 yards, but with different chokes. So, is there any real difference in their performance on clay targets?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:16 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
Posts: 278
Joe Hunter wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
As you know, no two patterns are identical. Further, 70% of what? Higher antimony shells loaded of the same shot diameter have more pellets as antimony is not nearly as dense as lead: 6.684 g /cm-3.


I probably should have title this topic as "Are these 70% patterns equal?"

Anyway, I selected the two loads listed since they were essentially the same internally as far as payload, pellet size and pellet count and they patterned nearly identically at 40 yards, but with different chokes. So, is there any real difference in their performance on clay targets?

Following up my previous post, you will always have a more central region that is dense enough to reliably break targets and an outer, less dense region where luck plays a big role in a pellet hitting the bird. Ideally you would like the center region to be a big as possible while still dense enough to not let a bird get through. Forget about the 30 inch circle and examine patterns for the size of the kill zone. The two different shells could have very similar pellet counts in the 30 inch circle and yet be very different in the center 15 inch circle. Having said that two 70%/30 inch circle shell and choke combos will very likely work similarly for you if not rigorously identidally.

_________________
Morris


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:18 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:36 pm
Posts: 1658
Location: Northeast Ohio
painter* wrote:
Grouse Gunner wrote:
Yep. Core matters. Both shells are premium hard shot. Core is always the most consistent part of a pattern. I'm betting if you pattern 50 each of these shells (or ten) and analyze them as efficiently as you always do, you'll find no difference worth ever thinking about again.

By the way, a hearty thank you from all of us for your great testing and reporting, past and future. Your work is top notch and appreciated by everyone who sees them.

Especially lazy guys like me!


I don't consider Gun Clubs to have premium shot, which is why it takes a light full choke to get the same percentage as the AA using a light mod. The AA does have premium shot. If Joe had reversed the chokes there would be a huge difference.

I bet if Joe had counted the core, and the outer ring, a difference in density would be seen. In this case the Gun Club's outer ring might be dense enough to be more effective than the AA's outer ring.

Interesting question Joe.


Oops, my bad! Sorry. I read Joe's original post too quickly and thought he was comparing STS, not Gun Clubs to AA. That changes the whole discussion.

I'll try to be more careful. Didn't mean to waste words or anybody's reading effort or brain power with my erroneous post. :oops:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:54 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 7:05 pm
Posts: 156
With the data originally posted, maybe. As others have said, the core of the pattern will always work, the outer ring, or fringe, can be hit or miss, (no pun intended). The pattern that has the most even distribution across the outer ring would be superior, (fewer gaps of voids a target can get through).

We dont always break our targets with the centre of the pattern.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:40 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 19485
Joe Hunter wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
As you know, no two patterns are identical. Further, 70% of what? Higher antimony shells loaded of the same shot diameter have more pellets as antimony is not nearly as dense as lead: 6.684 g /cm-3.


I probably should have title this topic as "Are these 70% patterns equal?"

Anyway, I selected the two loads listed since they were essentially the same internally as far as payload, pellet size and pellet count and they patterned nearly identically at 40 yards, but with different chokes. So, is there any real difference in their performance on clay targets?


NO. At least not on a consistently measurable basis.

_________________
Please post For Sale items in the proper Classified section.

Semi-Auto Classifieds is ONLY for Complete Semi-Auto shotguns.
Over/Under Classifieds is ONLY for Complete O/U shotguns.
Items other than a complete shotgun go in OTHER Classifieds.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are all 70% patterns equal?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:23 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 27050
Location: Plainfield, IL
Joe Hunter wrote:
Here’s an example to consider:

12 GA 2 3/4" WINCHESTER AA HEAVY TARGET LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (377 pellets) @ 1200 fps

12 GA 2 3/4" REMINGTON GUN CLUB TARGET LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (375 pellets) @ 1200 fps



In the case of those two loads, they either aren't both #7-1/2 shot or not 1-1/8 oz. exactly, or a bit of both.

Antimony is 6.684 g/cc, lead is 11.35 g/cc. Supposedly, AA's are 6% antimony by weight, Gun Clubs are 2% antimony by weight. AA's should have noticeably more pellets than Gun Clubs, but in your example they are essentially the same.



_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 47MolineRTU, albanygun, altmana24, Bdillard0421, bfre49849, BG1187, BigDeeeeeeee, Bing [Bot], BOB_HARWELL, Burnt Powder, casonet, charger442, clays99, dallen749, Dedduc, dtingey, dukman22, ellisjre, fishrising, fullgallon, FullTang, GE-Mini-gun, goodemachine, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, Jaspo01, John H, Keperkey, KRIEGHOFFK80, Lowbar83, lt0026, Majestic-12 [Bot], Malcolm7, McFarmer, moorewhiskey, msmith, mtchamber, North Ron, oneounceload, oyeme, Patently Obvious, piedmontqc, PJR, pkbud74*, popcorn09, randyflycaster, RichM, Rooster booster, rosiesdad, shacked, simslax, southdakbearfan, Specklebelly, Steeler [Crawler], Stuck-N-Kali, superskeet, Tidefanatic, tlemons, Tonybart55, Vette Jockey2, Virginian, vzarcaro, Walla2, Westender, wjonessc, xsshooter


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice