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 Post subject: Please help me decipher these proof marks on an old 16 gauge
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:27 am 
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Location: Milwaukee
Please let me know what these proof marks mean. I was told this has 2 9/16th chambers. Is that correct? If so and I want to shoot it, can I buy ammo or will I need to learn to reload? Any idea what the other poof marks mean? Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me decipher these proof marks on an old 16 gauge
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:45 pm 
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* over J - Inspector's mark for Pierre Neuprez who inspected guns from 1930 t0 1968.

Rampant lion over PV - Voluntary smokless powder proof

Stylized ELG (script) - Proof mark of Liege, Belgium proof house

The Perron - indicates Belgium proof

16 over C in upturned square - 16ga choked barrel

Crown over ELG star - Final black bowder proof.

I cannot see any chamber proof but a 2 9/16" chamber will be shown as a 16-65 in a Greek Omega (looks like a horse shoe). This indicates that the barrel is 16ga and the chamber is 65mm (2 /916"). A 2 3/4" chamber will be indicated by 16-70.

1K.233.4 - This was the weight of the barrels when they were proofed ( 2.7183 pounds).

Hope this helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me decipher these proof marks on an old 16 gauge
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:33 pm 
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Record was used by Scholberg but I can't ID the RB&C over an anchor (possibly the barrel maker)
Interesting double bite with cross bolt lock up. The patent shown here has a triple bite
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar ... g%20gb.htm

It was made between 1910 and 1922; no Lettre Annale (Dateletter)
The D=65/18.7 - 65 mm chamber with .736" diameter (not bore) and used 1892-1924.
(The gauge and chamber length in a lying omega came after 1924)
The 16.2? and 16.5? over 17.0 (the 16g bore at .670") are the choke diameter in mm; found after 1910

As with any vintage gun, it should be evaluated by a doublegun specialist smith prior to using. Let us know where you are and we may be able to recomend someone nearby. Looks to be a quality Belgian SxS :)

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me decipher these proof marks on an old 16 gauge
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:58 am 
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Location: Hannover, Germany
Gentlemen,

a most interesting gun – for two reasons.

First, the special barrel lugs are an invention of German gun smith and gun factory owner Franz Jäger, Suhl who had two patents on this special arrangement. Shown hereinafter is the British patent No. 18,810 of 1905:

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In 1900 and 1901 Jäger was living in New York and worked together with Carl Bittiner with whom he had joint patents on other details of shotguns. Bittiner is interesting in so far, as on the list of Belgian gun makers:

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html

his name is listed in connection with the trademark “Record”. Guns according to Jäger’s patent(s) were made in Germany by the company Simson, Suhl.

The second reason: there are also German proofs present, i. e. crown/N on the receiver and Imperial eagle and the word “Nitro” on the barrels. That is most unusual, as Belgium and Germany did accept the proof procedure and proofs of the other country – a re-proof wasn’t necessary (contrary to Austria, what did not accept German proofs). So: why does it have also German proofs and why not the full set of German proofs (calibre indication, crown/S, crown/W and so on)?

Is there maybe a marking crown/R? This would indicate a repair, what makes a re-proof necessary under German Law. Another explanation for presence of German smokeless powder proof could be, that the owner thought, the gun was proofed only for black powder and thought it necessary to also have a German smokeless powder proof.

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me decipher these proof marks on an old 16 gauge
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:26 pm
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Martin,

A most interesting analysis. Thank you for the education.

If I recall correctly, Fabarm in Italy produced a SxS employing parallel underlocking lugs eliminating the Greener crossbolt.

Doppelflinten


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 Post subject: Re: Please help me decipher these proof marks on an old 16 gauge
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:20 am 
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doppelflinten wrote:
Martin,

A most interesting analysis. Thank you for the education.


Hi Doppelflinten,

Thanks – but I have to correct some points. First of all, Jäger produced their guns in their own factory under the brand “Herold”. Simson is only a part of the designation in “Simson-Jäger-Verschluss” (Simson Jäger lock) – for whatever reasons.

Next I found ads for the “Record” shotguns in two German catalogs. First, in a 1913/14 dated Akah catalog

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And second in a 1914/15 dated Geco (Genschow & Co) catalog.

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In both catalogs the “Record” shotguns were offered without revealing the maker and in both catalogs the “Herold” shotguns by Jäger are also offered. Seems, there must have been an agreement between Jäger and the maker of the Record shotguns, because Jäger owned the relating patents.
Anyway, the “Record” shotguns shown in the catalogs were made by the company Scholberg & Delheid, owner of the trademark “Record” and owner of the trademark “S & D”. I don’t have access to vintage Belgian trademarks, but at least I found S&D’s German trademark registered in 1907:

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The question now (still) is: who made rlvanden’s shotgun? The trademark of his is quiet different from S&D’s trademark. But after taking a loooooong and close look on it, it seems to me, there are two trademarks present: S&D’s trademark “S & D with crossed barrels” which was over stamped with “R B & C plus anchor and crossed rifles”.

Maybe the brand of R. Bornmüller & Co., Suhl? :wink:

Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to find a registered trademark by Bornmüller, nor any other ad or publication by Bornmüller.

The only info I found about Bornmüller is this:

http://www.archivingindustry.com/Milita ... erence.htm

Quote:
Bornmüller
Richard Bornmüller; Suhl in Thüringen, Germany. Once a partner in Bornmüller, Simson & Luck, this gunmaker traded independently in Suhl in the twentieth century. Most of the directories list the business as a wholesaler of guns and ammunition. The entry in the Deutsches Reichs Adressbuch for 1900 lists the owners as 'Edm. R. & Ernst H. Bornmüller'; by 1914, however, it was being operated by Ernst Hilmar Bornmüller. The 1930 directory entry still lists 'Bornmüller & Co.', and the 1941 edition lists 'Richard Bornmüller u. Co.' as a gunmaker; operations ceased in 1945.


And this:

http://www.feuerbixler.de/history14.html


Regards

Martin
P.S: I love detective work…. and good photos like the one of rlvanden making detective work possible.

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Last edited by sauerfan on Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me decipher these proof marks on an old 16 gauge
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:39 am 
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Gentlemen,

I felt free to take rlvanden's image of the trademark and emphasized the S & D and the crossed barrels of the original trademark by S &D:

Image

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me decipher these proof marks on an old 16 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:08 pm 
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Sauerfan is correct. It is the mark of Guillaume Scholberg & Delheid. They were located at Rue Morinval, 24 in Liege. They had purchased the business from Joris & Co. They were only around for about 8 years. They registered this trademark in 1906. Guillaume Scholberg was part of a large gun making family in Liege. Before this he was business by himself. He first opened his doors in 1880. He registered at least 10 patents that we know of. The Scholberg family had been around since at least 1860. The Paul Scholberg (maybe his son) was the last of the family in the gun business. His firm continued until 1948 at the same address.

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me decipher these proof marks on an old 16 gauge
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:43 pm 
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Gents,

I had the good fortune to acquire the above from rivanden recently. Lovely handling at an ounce over 6#'s, great lockup, and IMO an excellent quality gun.
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The receiver bears more than a passing resemblance to my Gecos, my surmise is that S&D may well have bought it from FN and machined it for the proprietary lockup.
Image

The German nitro proofs may well be the result of its having had the chamber lengthened to 70mm, no sign of a repair mark, but definitely already the long chamber when I got it 2 weeks ago. Bore is good, though there is a bit of light pitting ahead of the chamber, not enough for me to worry about, and it's clearly been refinished and had the checkering repointed at some stage of its career. 100 rounds at the trap range without a hitch, though with a new operator and 3/4oz loads of 8 1/2's, I didn't do very well. Have yet to get SxS's down. Chokes are per barrel markings, .025" and .040", when I did manage to get on the birds, they dusted. I'll probably open them right up to around .008"/ .015".
Thanks to all who contributed on research here, it was a big help when I stumbled across it while browsing on Gunbroker, and pulled the trigger on BuyItNow. And full marks to rivenden/wingate for an accurate description and a pleasure to deal with.
Cheers,
R*2


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 Post subject: Re: Please help me decipher these proof marks on an old 16 g
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:35 pm
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I bought one almost identical except for my breach lever is on the bottom and i think its a 10 ga. but all the screw patterns and decor is extremely similar.
Its missing a hammer screw. Any extra info other than mentioned above would be a large help. It has the same ELG star mark and a R with a crown above it(german repair?), also its got a 19.6 choke #. I do not know how to dismantle it so those are the only marks I can find. It also has a black buffalo horn decorative piece behind the triggers. Please help, wait it did find a number below the bottom lever its 4 numbers that are tough to make out. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Please help me decipher these proof marks on an old 16 g
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:16 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:47 pm
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Peanut2010 wrote:
IIt has the same ELG star mark and a R with a crown above it(german repair?),


Those are Belgian proof marks.
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

The ELG is was used to indicate conformity with German proof The R indicates a rifled barrel.



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