It is currently Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:23 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:27 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1176
Location: AZ but dreaming of KS
Prior to 1924, the Belgian and British Service (using) load for 12g 2 3/4” shells was 1 1/4 oz. / 3 1/4 Dram Eq. (1220 fps). The pressure of that load would have been about 8500 psi with BULK smokeless powder; with DENSE smokeless 9,500 - 10,500 psi.
2 1/2” shells were usually loaded with 1 1/8 oz. shot and 3 Dr. Eq. of BULK Smokeless with a pressure of 6500 - 7500 psi; DENSE Smokeless was 9000 - 10,000 psi.

During WWI the standard English 12g load was dropped by law (to conserve the supplies of lead and powder) to 1 oz. and 3 Dr. Eq. Bulk smokeless. After the War, 2 1/2” shells were generally loaded with 1 1/16 oz. shot and 3 Dr. Eq. Bulk or Dense smokeless powder.

In the 1925 British Proof House revisions, the 2 1/2” & 2 5/8” 12g service load was reduced to 3 Drams with 1 1/8 oz. shot with a mean max. service pressure of 3 1/4 tons = (converted using Burrard's forumula) 9,682 psi.

After the 1924 Belgian Proof House revisions, the 12g max. service load was 600 kg/cm2 = 8534 psi + 10 - 14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement or about 9,600 psi.

Independent testing showed the 3 Dr. Eq. 1 1/8 oz. Old Style CF AA Winchester Trap Load to be 9,600 psi; AA Xtra-Lite 1 oz. WAAL12 8000 psi.

More information
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2s ... FU/preview



_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:58 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:09 pm
Posts: 465
Location: Valdosta GA
Bernardelli umberto #1 full and mod. Can I shoot 3" mags?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:12 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1176
Location: AZ but dreaming of KS
No one on the internet can tell you if YOUR gun is safe, with any load.
It should be marked 76mm/3" and carry 'TWO stars over PSF' marks for "Superior Proof"
More, but somewhat contradictory, information here
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb ... 93b5d7fcf4
If you are inquiring regarding steel shot, that is a much more complex issue and you might post images of your gun's marks on the General Discussion Forum

_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:37 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1176
Location: AZ but dreaming of KS
Post-Western Super-X (1922) load pressures

In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. flyer "Super-X The Long Range Load" by Capt. Chas. Askins, the 12g. duck load is described as 1 1/4 oz. with 38 1/2 grains DuPont Oval with a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps and a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or 11,480 psi.
SAAMI 12g 2 3/4" maximum is 11,500 psi.

From “Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics” by Wallace H Coxe; E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., 1927, a DuPont Oval Pamphlet, p.20.
The original 1922 Western Cartridge Co. 12g ‘Super-X Field’ (loaded with DuPont Oval), and 1923 Peters Cartridge Co. ‘High Velocity’, United States Cartridge ‘Ajax Heavies Long-Range’, and Remington Kleanbore ‘Nitro Express Extra Long Range’ loads were all 2 3/4”, 1 1/4 oz., 3 3/4 Dr. Eq. (1330 fps).
Dram Eq. is listed as 3 but has to be 3 3/4 compared to other pressure graphs. Charge was 1 1/4 oz. Pressure is expressed in Long Tons.

Image

Using the estimated Tons Lead Crusher Pressure (Cp) conversion to PSI (pound force per square inch) (Cp x 1.5) - .5 = TSI, TSI X 2240 = PSI.
"Ballistite" Dense maximum pressure at 1” was 4.9 Long Tons = 15,344 psi
"Schultze" at 1 3/4” was 4.5 Long Tons = 14,000 psi
DuPont Bulk at 1 2/3” was 4.1 Long Tons = 12,656 psi
FFFg at 1 1/2” was 3.8 Long Tons = 11,648 psi
Oval at 2” was 3.5 Long Tons = 10,640 psi

In the 1928 edition of "Smokeless Shotgun Powders", Coxe reported 3 1/2 Dram Eq. 1 1/4 oz. loads:
DuPont Bulk smokeless powder - 11,700 psi by LUP + 10-14% by modern piezo transducers
Schultze Bulk smokeless powder - 11,800 psi
28 grains of Ballistite - 12,600 psi
40 grains of DuPont Oval Progressive Burning powder - 9,400 psi

A DuPont loading manual from the 1960s listed DuPont Bulk:
3 1/2 Dr. Eq. with 1 1/8 oz. shot at 10,000 psi + 10-14%
3 1/5 (3.20) Dr. Eq. with 1 1/4 oz. shot at 9,900 psi + 10-14%

“Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics” 1933. The pressure curves (PSI by LUP) are for a 3 Dr. Eq. 1 1/4 oz. load. Pressure by modern piezo transducers would be 10-14% higher.
DuPont MX = 9,800 psi
.....DuPont MX Smokeless was a Dense Multi Base Powder introduced about 1930.
.....25.5 grains was a 3 Dram Eq. and it was promoted as a 1 1/4 oz. Trap load.
.....It was replaced in the 1954 with IMR PB.
DuPont Bulk = 9,600 psi
FFFg = 9,000 psi
DuPont Oval = 8,700 psi

I have no data for Western's 3 inch 'Record' with 1 3/8 oz. of shot released in 1924; U.S. Cartridge Co. 'Climax Heavies' was introduced in 1927.

_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:13 am 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1176
Location: AZ but dreaming of KS
I've added a number of modern load pressures, as reported by the manufacturer or by independent testing, at the bottom here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2s ... FU/preview

_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:16 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:38 pm
Posts: 584
I've enjoyed reading the posts re this topic. I own dozens of old guns of all kinds. I have shot all but a few. I have a Hall rifle, Smith and Burnside carbines, Springfield muskets, both flint and percussion and an 1861 Springfield. I've got Lefever, L.C. Smith, Parker and Crescent shotguns. I've got some very old guns, Hardy shotguns c.a. 1845, frontier muzzleloading rifles c.a. 1840 and Colt pistols. I shoot them all. Some like the Parker GH and Ross MkII straight pull I first tied to a tire and touched them off with a long string. Some, the Hardy Bros muzzle loading shotgun and Pioneer rifle I shot when I was a kid and knew nothing about the dangers of shooting old guns. I just poured in BP from a powder horn until I decided to stop. Some I overloaded just for the heck of it. Some I had no idea how to load and just loaded them until the chambers were full....Colt percussion pistols and a Starr DA for example. I shot original duelers and screw barrel derringers. I have shot several original Sharps rifles a lot, some percussion and some cartridge, some shot extremely well and some shoot around corners. I shoot the old BP Mausers and a Danish Rolling Block. I own an old British fowler flintlock that I cannot bring myself to shoot. Had a gunsmith measure wall thickness of the barrel. I asked him if it'd be safe to shoot. He said, "Well, I don't know, but there's a lot of steel in that barrel."

I don't hesitate to shoot an old gun if it looks sound to me. Most of the shotguns people are concerned about in this thread are safe to shoot....unless you get a bad one.




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: amboy49, billd3, Bing [Bot], ciril, clayaddiction, Cmh07a, csm1007, daspope, dubob, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Jager1, Knipan, Maser, mikey1299, mpolans, MSNbot Media, ohio mike, OldHick, pitted bore, Rack-N-Roy, Radeldf, rat-man, rebcussion, robbor, Rooster booster, strut64, Supervet, Terrapin, Thumper68, Tommix, wildlew, wraco, ysr_racer


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice