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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe to shoot?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:12 pm 
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1902 Sears catalog No. 112
"Gun and rifle barrels can only burst by having some obstruction in the barrel or by overloading with Nitro powder."

Image


Capt. Edward C. Crossman
"How Guns Are Blown Up"
Scientific American, May 27 1916
http://books.google.com/books?id=aoM3AQ ... =PA554&lpg

Popular Mechanics July, 1926
“Why Hunters’ Guns Blow Up”
http://books.google.com/books?id=fdgDAA ... -PA105&lpg

Primarily obstruction or substituting dense smokeless powder for bulk smokeless.



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Last edited by Drew Hause on Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe to shoot?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:28 pm 
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Probably not any more, but looks like they are still trying :shock:

Morris Island, South Carolina. 300-pounder Parrot Rifle. Wall thickness looks good though :wink:

Image

Interesting reading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrott_rifle

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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe to shoot?
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 6:54 pm 
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Black and Nitro powder Service and Proof Charge Pressures
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCA ... g=PA296&dq
Experiments to ascertain the pressures given by service charge and proof charges used in England have been carried out by The Field. Under the existing Regulations of Proof in England, a “service charge” is specified for every bore, and the compulsory definitive proof is made with double the service charge of proof-house powder and 1 1/3 (times) the service charge of No. 6 shot. Besides the compulsory proof, a supplementary proof with other kinds of powder is permitted, if applied for. Many other charges, both larger and smaller than the officially stated “service charge”, are in constant use.
We give records of pressures of a dozen varieties of powder, with the most commonly used charge for 12-bores, as well as with the “service charge” laid down in the Proof-House Regulations.
Pressures were measured using crushers (LUP) and reported as psi. Pressures would be 10-14% higher by modern piezo transducers.
Nitro 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. (1200 fps) 5330 - 6110 psi
Nitro 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. (1220 fps) 6360 - 8620 psi

Curtis and Harvey’s No. 2 (“T.S.2”) was a fine grain fast burning Black Powder somewhat similar to FFFFg that produced pressures substantially above that of the standard proof Black powder.

S.S. (Smokeless Shot-gun) was a Bulk Smokeless powder made by Smokeless Powder Co. (England)
https://books.google.com/books?id=AjsoA ... =PA468&lpg
It was discarded as loading with higher charges of powder produced significantly greater pressures than “E.C.” or “Schultze”

Image

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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:10 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe to shoot?
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 6:07 pm 
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Belgian Service & Proof Load Pressures

Banc D'Epreuves Des Armes a Feu De Liege (Proof House for Firearms of Liege) 1906
https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA ... g=PA52&lpg
12g - about 1 1/4 oz. / 3 1/4 Dram Eq. (1220 fps).
(12g 5.8 grams = 89.5 grains = 3 1/4 Dram)
16g - about 1 oz. / 2 1/2 Dram Eq. (1165 fps).
20g - about 7/8 oz. / 2 1/4 Dram Eq. (1155 fps).
Powder was not specified, but appears to be a Black Powder No. 4

After the proof house revisions of 1924, a Certificat d’epreuve could be issued and specified:
“The pressure developed, measured by crusher type device , lower or equal to 600 kg per square centimeter for sizes 16, 12, 10, 8 & 4; 670 pounds per square inch for sizes 20, 24 and smaller.”
600 kg/cm2 = 8534 psi SERVICE pressure;
670 kg/cm2 = 9530 psi SERVICE pressure
+ 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement.
20 g was PROVED at 1000 kg/cm2 = 14,223 psi
12g PROVED at 900 kg/cm2 = 12,801 psi
Transducer numbers for 20g would be close to 15,500 psi; 12g about 14,000 psi

The Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives standards were not ratified until 1969.
http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en ... _type_id=7
Pressures are measured by transducers
12g 65mm and 70mm “standard proof” lead or steel (limited to no larger than 3.25 mm and max. fps 1,300) SERVICE pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi; Maximum statistical individual pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi; PROOF 930 BAR = 13,489 psi.
Both 65 and 70 mm 16g standard is SERVICE 780 BAR or 11,313 psi; PROOF 980 BAR or 14,214 psi.
Both 65 and 70 mm 20g standard is SERVICE 830 BAR or 12,038 psi; PROOF 1040 BAR or 15,084 psi.

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Last edited by Drew Hause on Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:49 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What shells was my gun designed to shoot
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 6:52 pm 
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U.S. Maker's Load Recommendations and Hang Tags

PLEASE NOTE:
12g 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram load (1200 fps) of DuPont FFFg Black Powder (82 grains) is about 5000 psi.
3 Dram Equivalent of BULK Smokeless is 6500 - 7500 psi.
3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless is 9000 - 10,000 psi.
3 1/4 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless with 1 1/8 oz. shot is about 8500 psi.
3 1/4 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless with 1 1/8 oz. shot is 9500 - 10,500 psi.

L.C. Smith hang tags:
12 gauge 3 dram 1 1/4 oz. shot @ 1165 fps (1887 - about 1920)
............3 dram 1 1/8 oz. shot @ 1200 fps (after 1920)
16 gauge 2 1/2 dram 1 oz. shot @ 1165 fps (introduced 1896)
20 gauge 2 1/4 dram 7/8 oz. shot @ 1155 fps (introduced 1907)
A L.C. Smith Syracuse hang tag from 1887 states the 12g gun had been patterned at 35 yds. using a 24” circle with 3 Drachms powder with 1 1/4 oz. No. 8 shot.
After about 1912 the 12g guns (unless otherwise requested by the purchaser) were patterned at 40 yds. using a 30” circle with 3 Dram and 1 1/4 oz. Tatham’s chilled No. 7 1/2 shot (431 pellets in the load). Black Powder or Bulk Smokeless were not specified on the hang tag.

From Remington hang tags, until at least 1899, guns were targeted with a black powder load of 3 1/2 Drachms F.G. Powder with 1 1/4 ounce of #8 chilled shot.
A 1908 hang tag for a 12g Remington Hammerless states that the gun was targeted with 24 grains ( 3 1/4 Dram Eq.) of Infallible in a 2 5/8 inch UMC Nitro Club shell with 1 1/4 ounce of #8 chilled shot. The maximum recommended 12g loads were 3 1/4 Dram of Bulk Smokeless or 26 grains (3 1/2 Dram Eq.) of “Infallible” or “Ballistite” Dense smokeless powders. (Courtesy of David Noreen)

Parker 12g SN 71792 c. 1891 was patterned with 1 1/4 oz. No. 7 and 42 grains DuPont.
A 1900 Parker hang tag states that 12g 2 5/8” chambered guns were patterned at 40 yds. in a 30” circle using 2 3/4” shells with 1 1/8 oz. No. 7 chilled shot and 40 grains (3 1/4 Dram) of DuPont Bulk Smokeless powder. (Courtesy of Bruce Day)
1920s tags listed both 1 1/8 oz. and 1 1/4 oz., still with DuPont Bulk Smokeless.

c. 1895 Baker Gun & Forging Co. 12g tags (courtesy of Daryl Hallquist) state the gun was patterned with No. 8 shot in a 24” circle at 35 yds. using 1 1/4 oz. shot with 2 3/4 dram American “E.C.” powder.
1904-05 “Baker Gun Quarterly” state that guns were patterned with No. 8 shot in a 24" circle at 35 yds., but do not specify the load.

1912 A.H. Fox 12g hang tags state that the gun has been patterned with 3 Dram Smokeless powder with 1 1/8 oz. No. 8 shot.
A 1916 hang tag for a Sterlingworth lists a load of 3 1/8 Dram Smokeless powder and 1 1/4 oz. No. 7 1/2. (Courtesy of David Noreen)

c. 1910 Flues era Ithaca Gun Co. 12g “Lightning Lock” hang tags state the guns were patterned with No. 8 chilled shot in a 24” circle at 35 yds using 3 Dram “New Schultze” Smokeless powder and 1 1/8 oz. shot.

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"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:46 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 11:58 am 
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Drew:

Great information on classic shotgun loads.

It seems strange that a gun manufacture would recommend something like Fox’s loading guidelines:
“DuPont and E.C. smokeless powders, 12 Ga, 3 drams powder and 1 1/8 Oz chilled shot”.

Three Drams was a typical loading weight of Blackpowder that equals 82 grains of weight. Using 82 grains of a smokeless powder would be about a 2x overload, dangerous:
- The UK Proof Regs of 1896 stated that 42 grains of E.C. powder and 1 1/8 Oz of shot was the standard service charge for a 12 Ga.
- The 1895 Montgomery Ward catalog stated that a “2 ½ Drs. of Blackpowder measure equals 36 grains of E.C.”

Could Fox have meant a 3 ‘Dram Equivalent’ of powder? Possibly that was what was implied by the term ‘drams’ w/o the ‘Equivalent’ when referring to smokeless powders? ‘Dram Equivalent’ may not have been generally accepted definition at the time.

From SAMMI, (http://www.saami.org/glossary/display.cfm?letter=D):

“DRAM EQUIVALENT:
The accepted method of correlating relative velocities of shotshells loaded with smokeless propellant to shotshells loaded with black powder. The reference black powder load chosen was a 3 dram charge of black powder, with 1 1/8 oz. of shot and a velocity of 1200 fps. Therefore, a 3 dram equivalent load using smokeless powder would be with 1 1/8 oz. of shot having a velocity of 1200 fps. or 1 1/4 oz. of shot and a velocity of 1165 fps. A 3 1/4 dram equivalent load might have 1 1/8 oz. of shot and a velocity of 1255 fps. Abbreviated Dram Equiv.”

Some examples can be seen here: http://www.mchenry-sc.org/Engineering/DRAM.html

Using only velocities for Dram Equivalent may have been the best that could be done during the transition period. Crusher Gauges weren’t yet standardized. Pressure measurements differed between various designs of gauges making pressure specifications unreliable. Velocities could be accurately measured.


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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 12:30 pm 
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Bulk Smokeless could be measured by volume (Drams) or weight (grains), but measuring by weight became the standard.
Henry Sharp, The Gun: Afield & Afloat, 1904
http://books.google.com/books?id=BFRDAA ... g=PA66&lpg
“Sportsmen are now in possession of two definite types of smokeless powder, the so-called bulk powder and the newer concentrated or condensed powder. The first is designed to occupy the same space as black powder in the cartridge-case, although only weighing about half as much.”

Also see p. 445
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wv0MAQ ... =PA442&lpg

1896 UK Rules of Proof Service Charges for Nitro Powder

Image

c. 1915 “DuPont Sporting Powders”
http://books.google.com/books?id=WJgMAQ ... g=PA27&lpg

1922 http://books.google.com/books?id=97dJAA ... g=PA57&lpg

………………..BULK……….........…….......________……………….DENSE…………..
.............'E.C.'......DuPont…...Schultze_____Walsrode Green...Ballistite…...Infallible

3 Dram....42...........36.5..............42................30………..…...24..............22 grains
3 1/4…....45.5.........41................45................32……..….…..26..............24 grains
3 1/2…....49...........43................48................34………..…...28..............26 grains

PLEASE NOTE:
The original “Schultze” & “E.C.” No. 1 Bulk Smokeless were 14 grains/drachm.
New Schultze & New “E.C.(Improved)” Bulk Smokeless were 12 grains/drachm.
"E.C." No. 3 was 11 grains/drachm.
Some advertisements listed "Ballistite" and "Infallible" as equivalent

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"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:11 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 3:56 pm 
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It’s finally dawned on my pea brain!

Thanks for reminding me that E.C. was one of the early “Bulk” Nitro powders which allowed the same volume (bulk) measures that shooters were already using for Blackpowder to be used for Bulk powders, e.g., a volume measure that held 3 Drams (= 82 grains) of BP may only hold 41 grains (= 1 1/2 Drams) of a low density Bulk Powder both of which were normal safe loadings.

So Fox would have meant 3 drams of E.C. by volumetric measure and the handloaders of the time would have known what that meant. (Hopefully at least. If a shooter assumed that it meant the true meaning of 3 Drams by weight, as I did, it could have been scary. Such mistakes were part of the dangers with early Nitro powders.)

You are probably aware of this but a Dram has always been a weight measurement. Volumetric measures/scoops were just a convenient method of measurement for reloading the Ol’ muzzleloader in the field or for handloaders who couldn’t afford a balance. Volumetric measures for dense Nitro powders were also available. I suspect they were for specific powders since their density and strength varied.

See Wiki at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dram_(unit).

Or, for a detailed discussion from the time see:

“The Complete American and Canadian Sportsman's Encyclopedia of Valuable Instruction” by Francis Henry Buzzacott - January 1, 1905.
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=mFcCAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA271
which uses the British spelling of drams, or ‘drachms’.

“What is a drachm? There has been considerable controversy as to what the standard drachm measure for measuring powder is. Of course, all recognize the fact that a drachm, correctly speaking, is a weight; sixteen drachms make one ounce Avoirdupois, etc., so a drachm is one-sixteenth of an ounce Avoirdupois ….. When the drachm powder measure was originally made, it was supposed to be of the proper capacity to measure, in bulk, one-sixteenth of an ounce by weight of black powder, and sporting black powders were nearly all of the same density.

This, however, is not the case with the various smokeless powders, the specific gravity of which vary very much.”


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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:08 pm 
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An obstruction in the bore will blow up any gun. Drop a 20 gauge shell into the gun followed by a 12 and your gun will explode. An errant wad will cause many guns to let go too. If I hear a shooter's gun go "pop" I stop all shooting until we check the bore.

I read everything that I could find with respect to Sherman Bell's extensive studies and experiments using damascus/twist barrels. The barrels held up even when fired using modern smokeless proof loads. Bell was clear that he was not claiming that all old damascus guns were safe to shoot, but he shot his. I shoot mine with RST shells. Again after reading Bell's writings old BP shells were just as powerful as are most lightly loaded modern shells. Eight to ten thousand PSI with old BP shells was common. So what to do? I take my old guns to a competent gunsmith who specialized is refurbishing old shotguns and ask him. His response has always been, "Okay to shoot with light loads", which is exactly what I do.

I also own some old "liquid steel" guns. A Lefever I grade, a Fox Sterlingworth, my Dad's old 20 gauge Crescent Knickerbacher. I shoot them all, but never with heavy hunting loads. If I shoot heavy loads I pick up my Browning Gold Fusion that'll handle anything, even steel.


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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:40 pm 
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Stepmac: Good information. Sherman did blow up a classic barrel with a 20/12 gauge plug. I always try to keep the gauges separate.

I wouldn't have believed it but here’s a YouTube video of 20 and 12 gauge shells double loaded in a modern steel shotgun. The barrel didn't burst it only bulged. Don't try this at home!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GguN4KyGQCM

They didn't say but the extreme recoil in the last test would indicate the 20 gauge shell was actually blown through the barrel and exited with some significant velocity, maybe it fired.

Hardly a scientific study but ‘seeing is believing’.


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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:50 pm 
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Stepmac: just to clarify, the H & D Folsom Arms Co. Catalogue No. 35 (1930-31) listing for the New “Empire” (Crescent No. 9) states the barrels are “Fine Decarbonized ‘High Pressure’ Steel – Proof Testing with loads considerably heavier than standard loaded shells”.
The Club Hammerless was in the 1900 Sears catalog (Crescent Model 1896 side lever) “Bored For Nitro Powder” with “blued decarbonized steel barrel”. In 1902 it was listed with “rolled steel blued barrel...the best grade of Wilson’s steel”.
The 1902 Sears catalog also listed the 16 gauge “Automatic Ejector Single Gun”, a Crescent No. 8 “Bored For Nitro Powder” with “Decarbonized Armory Steel Barrel”.

Composition analysis and tensile strength testing:
c. 1900 Crescent “Wilson’s Welded Steel” was Bessemer Rephosphorized
Carbon Steel (similar to AISI 1017) with a Tensile Strength of 66,000 psi.

c. 1925 Crescent Fire Arms “Genuine Armory Steel” barrel with the ‘LLH’ mark of Laurent Lochet-Habran was Rephosphorized AISI 1040 Carbon Steel with a measured Tensile Strength of 104,000 psi.

Modern 4140 gun barrel chrome moly steel Tensile Strength is about 100,000 psi.

Measured black powder pressure are significantly lower than smokeless:
3 dram / 82 grains FFFg 1 1/8 oz. (1200 fps) is about 5000 psi.

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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
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Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:10 pm 
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Drew Hause wrote:
Stepmac: just to clarify, the H & D Folsom Arms Co. Catalogue No. 35 (1930-31) listing for the New “Empire” (Crescent No. 9) states the barrels are “Fine Decarbonized ‘High Pressure’ Steel – Proof Testing with loads considerably heavier than standard loaded shells”.
The Club Hammerless was in the 1900 Sears catalog (Crescent Model 1896 side lever) “Bored For Nitro Powder” with “blued decarbonized steel barrel”. In 1902 it was listed with “rolled steel blued barrel...the best grade of Wilson’s steel”.
The 1902 Sears catalog also listed the 16 gauge “Automatic Ejector Single Gun”, a Crescent No. 8 “Bored For Nitro Powder” with “Decarbonized Armory Steel Barrel”.

So I believe Crescent's "Armory Steel" was decarbonized steel rather than fluid steel, but am still looking for a chunk of Crescent barrel for composition analysis.
Not bad stuff, and with a bit more tensile strength (esp. if "rolled") than pattern welded barrels:
Bessemer or Decarbonized Gun Barrel Steel: 55,000 - 70,000 psi with an average 63,000 psi.
It is likely some of the barrels were similar to AISI 1018 Low Carbon (Mild) Barrel Steel: 64,000 psi.
Winchester Standard Ordnance (Bessemer Cold) “Rolled” Steel tensile strength as 69,400 psi.
Marlin Model 1898 Slide Action Shotgun “Special Rolled Steel”: 66,000 psi
It is assumed the “Remington Steel” used on the K Grade (Model 1900) Hammerless and (1894) Hammerless Grade “F.E.” Trap Gun (introduced in 1906) is similar.
“Parker Steel” used on Grade 1 PH & NH after 1917 is Decarbonized Steel.

Actual tensile strength testing of c. 1900 U.S. maker's fluid steel barrels is similar to modern 4140 gun barrel chrome moly steel at about 100,000 psi.

Measured black powder pressure are significantly lower than smokeless:
3 dram / 82 grains FFFg 1 1/8 oz. (1200 fps) is about 5000 psi.
3 3/4 dram GOEX FFFg with 1 1/4 oz. (1240 fps) is about 6000 psi.
4 drams of FFFg / 108 gr. with 1 1/8 oz. (1420 fps) is about 7000 psi.


Thank you for your post! To find Bell's numbers I have to dig thru about a three foot tall stack of old "Double Gun" magazines. I'm sure your numbers are correct. While serial number/dates are hard to find, I think my Dad's 20 gauge Crescent was made in 1901 or 02. His dad shot a 12 gauge Remington Model 11. I know that dad loaded it with what we used to call "high base 5's" to shoot at ducks alongside his dad. These being the most powerful loads of the day. No such thing as a 20 gauge magnum in those days.

I have never shot anything other that light skeet loads in any of my 1900 era shotguns. The Lefever "I" grade 12 gauge is extremely light, even with the 30" tubes. I shoot it at Clays and enjoy it.


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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe to shoot?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:23 pm 
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Drew Hause wrote:
Probably not any more, but looks like they are still trying :shock:

Morris Island, South Carolina. 300-pounder Parrot Rifle. Wall thickness looks good though :wink:

Image

Interesting reading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrott_rifle


I think they kept on firing that gun! It must have been quite something when the forward portion of the tube let go.


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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:51 pm 
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Unlike Blackpowder, which essentially has a single composition, there's a wide range of Smokeless powders. It's likely, but not certain, that commercially loaded shells use fast burning powders to reduce the weight of powder needed and therefore their cost. This probably pushes their pressures to near the max recommended pressure of 11,500 psi for a 12 gauge even for light target loads.

It's not hard to find loads in the reloading manuals that have pressures/velocities similar to BP loads. This is an example of a lower pressure load from Hodgdons' Loading Manual (http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/shotgun):

For 1 Oz. of shot, using SR7625 Powder and a 12 GA, 2 3/4" Shell:
21.5 grs > 4,700 PSI and 1,100 FPS
22.5 grs > 5,200 PSI and 1,150 FPS
24.0 grs > 5,900 PSI and 1,200 FPS
25.5 grs > 6,600 PSI and 1,250 FPS

Sherman Bell pressure compared a 1 1/4 ounce loads of 3 3/4 drams GOEX FFFg vs. Blue Dot, both at 1,240 fps, which gave nearly identical results:

@ 1" from breech - Blackpowder = 5,900 psi, Blue Dot = 6,000 psi
@ 6" from breech - Blackpowder = 4,100 psi, Blue Dot = 4,300 psi
@ 12" from breech - Blackpowder = 2,100 psi, Blue Dot = 2,300 psi

Firms like RST, Polywad and New Era can supply factory loaded low pressure shells. See viewtopic.php?f=13&t=259371&start=40 about 2/3 - 3/4 down the page for more info.

An advantage of BP is that you probably couldn't fit enough of it into a shell to overpressure any shotgun.


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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:42 pm 
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I just returned from the skeet range. I shot my new old Browning Auto 5 16 gauge shotgun. Gun made in 1930 or 31 probably and not a "Sweet 16". Gun carries #3 engraving, very pretty. Shooting RST 16 2.5" shells advertised at 1200 FPS. I set the rings up for light loads and the gun functioned well. The RST people told me that at first their shells were not cycling Auto 5s so they loaded a faster powder. I thought I could hear or maybe feel the forearm being smacked. I am going to change the rings to heavy loads to see if it will cycle. I shoot Auto 5's wet and had coated the magazine tube with Rem Oil to help it cycle.

I had never shot this gun before and did not do well. I was shooting high. The gun feels good. If I carried a very fine bead I did better. I don't look a the bead when tracking the bird and only use it to mount the gun. Next time I'll do better. I only shot one round.

I have never reloaded shotshells, but will probably start to reload these short 16's.


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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:34 pm 
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A thread here stimulated a very interesting discussion on DoubleGun
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb ... 176&page=1

1897 - 1903 only [did] the Belgians provided specific load instructions. It took some help interpreting the marks, but it's been a valuable learning opportunity

Pre-1924 Manufacture Liegeoise d' Armes a Feu 16g
Bore 17.0mm = .669” Right choke 16.9mm = .665” = Improved Cylinder; Left choke 16.4mm = .646” = Improved Modified
Proved with E.C. No. 3 - “New E.C. (Improved) No.3” was Bulk Smokeless powder and was introduced in the U.S. in 1904; 11 grains = 1 dram equivalent.
Load markings: 1.81 grams "poudre" = 28 grains; E.C. No. 3, Walsrode Gray or Mullerite No. 2 = 2 1/2 Dram Equivalent.
24.5 grams "plombs" (lead) shot is 7/8 oz.

Image

Here's a 12g intended for the U.S. market with load data in American :) A 33 grain bulk powder = 3 Dram, with 1 1/8 oz. shot

Image

Thanks to the OP for getting this started!

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Last edited by Drew Hause on Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:38 pm 
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Stumbled onto 12, 16 & 20g pressures

Experiments by Mr. R.W.S. Griffith of the Schultze Powder Co.

"Sporting Guns and Gunpowder"
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCA ... &q&f=false

LOADS………………......……….…….....………11/8oz….1oz....7/8oz.
…………………………...………………..................12g…..16g..20g
Curtis & Harvey No. 4 T.S. Black Powder…..82……74……66 grains
Schultze and “E.C.” Bulk Smokeless.……..….42……37……33 grains
Walsrode Dense Smokeless...………………......28……24……22 grains

12g = 3 Dram BP or 3 Dr. Eq. Smokeless
16g - 74 gr. BP = 2.7 Drams; 37 gr. Bulk = 2.64 Dr. Eq.; 24 gr. Dense = 2.57 Dr. Eq.
20g - 66 gr. BP = 2.4 Drams; 33 gr. Bulk = 2.36 Dr. Eq.; 22 gr. Dense = 2.38 Dr. Eq.

CHAMBER PRESSURE: Using the estimated Long Tons Lead Crusher Pressure (Cp) conversion to PSI (pound force per square inch) (Cp x 1.5) - .5 = TSI, TSI X 2240 = PSI

…...……………..12……….16….…….20
C.&H. No. 4…6,373…..7,078…..6,944
C.&H. No. 2…7,459…..8,310..…8,288
Schultze……..4,424…..6,272…..7,246
“E.C.”…….…..3,685…..6,171…..8,322
Walsrode….….9,363……...…..….10,741
S.S.…..…...…..9,800……...…..….10,539
(S.S. - Smokeless Shot-gun)

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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
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Last edited by Drew Hause on Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:18 pm, edited 12 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:52 pm 
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Quote:
“1897 - 1903 only the Belgians provided specific load instructions. It took some help interpreting the marks, but it's been a valuable learning opportunity”


The British used load data for marking optionally Nitros Proofed shotguns beginning with their 1887 Proof Rules. Only Schultze and E.C. Nitros were available at the time. You can see a reference to the markings at: http://www.shotguns.se/html/uk.html.

A typical marking was ‘Max’m SCH 45 Grs. Shot 1 ¼ oz’. SCH stood for Schultze, the first commercial Nitro Powder. It actually had some Potassium Nitrate Oxidizer in it making it a Semi Smokeless powder. E.C. Powder was also used.

These marking are very rare. “Sporting Guns and Gunpowders: Comprising a Selection from ..., Volumes 1-2, By Frederick Toms” Reported that in 1891 of the 40,827 choked shotguns proofed in Birmingham only 28 were proofed with the optional Nitro Proof.

This can be confusing: if you are lucky enough to find a gun with markings something like “Max’m SCH 45 Grs. Shot 1 ¼ oz” it is actually Nitro Proofed w/o the 1904 and later 'NP' marking.

The 1896 Rules listed several brands of Nitro powders along with their Proof loadings and typical service loadings. They would have an unspecified abbreviation of the powders name.

An possibly rarer subset to the markings occurred under the 1896 Rules when the gun sender requested a Nitro Proofing w/o specifying a particular powder. In this case the gun is Proofed with a fine grained Blackpowder which, according to pressure tests in the book, actually produces a higher pressure than typical Nitro Proof loadings. In this case the gun is marked with “Nitro Proof oz. maximum” with the oz. indicating the service weight of shot to be used.

Seems odd that the first 'Nitro Proof' marked guns were actually proofed with BP.

The 1896 British Proof Rules can be seen on page 1 of the referenced book, see: https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCA ... es&f=false . It has some information on the 1887 Proof Rules but I can’t find a complete copy of the rules.

A summary of the 1896 Rules along with some of the Proof Pressures can be seen starting at the bottom of the page and on the next page at: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=259371&start=140


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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:24 pm 
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Summary of c. 1895 - 1920 pressures, extrapolated to modern piezo transducer numbers

The reported pressures are converted to modern piezo transducer numbers using Burrard’s formula if originally expressed as Tons/sq. inch by LUP (Lead [Crusher] Units Pressure), or by adding 10-14% if expressed as PSI by LUP

c. 1900: The “standard” U.S. 12g field and inanimate target load was 1 1/4 oz. shot with 3 1/4 Dram Equivalent (1220 fps) of Bulk Smokeless in a 2 5/8" or 2 3/4" case with a modern transducer pressure of 8000 - 9500 psi.
Just before WWI: The “standard” U.S. 12g field and inanimate target load was 1 1/8 oz. shot with 3 Dr. Eq. (1200 fps) Dense Smokeless in a 2 3/4" case with a transducer pressure of 8,500 - 10,000 psi.

12g
1 1/8 oz. 3 Drams (1200 fps) of DuPont FFFg Black Powder (82 grains) is about 5000 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 Drams (82 gr) Curtis & Harvey’s No. 4, T.S. Black Powder (similar to FFg) was about 6500 psi.
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 Drams Curtis & Harvey’s No. 4, T.S. was about 8500 psi.

1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram Equivalent of BULK Smokeless was 6500 - 7500 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless was 9000 - 10,000 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was about 8500 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was 9500 - 10,500 psi.
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was about 11,750 psi
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was about 12,600 psi
The modern SAAMI 12g maximum 2 3/4" and 3" pressure is 11,500 psi

16g
1 oz. 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was about 7000 psi.

20g
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was about 11,000 psi.
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was 8000-9000 psi

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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:18 pm, edited 16 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is my gun safe? What load was my gun designed to shoot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:27 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1150
Location: AZ but dreaming of KS
In light of the recent differences of opinion expressed on the General Forum
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=432872
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=432969
and the Shotgun Reloading Forum
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=259371

I have edited my posts here so there can be no confusion as to what is my OPINION, and what is (I believe valuable and clearly referenced) historical INFORMATION.

My opinions are expressed on my (completely non-commercial) website, and I alone am responsible for the content therein. I hope it has been and will continue to be helpful
https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknow ... m/www/home



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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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