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 Post subject: Damascus & Vintage Steel Barrel Identification
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:48 am 
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Location: AZ (heart in KS)
I would be happy to help you identify the pattern of Damascus and Twist barrels, or the composition of the steel used in your pre-1920s shotgun barrels. You can likely do so by reviewing the resources listed below:

Crolle Patterns - Terminology and Counting Scrolls
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zMm ... 2XVfc/edit
Damascus Pattern Classification
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IHG ... vv0fE/edit
Damascus Pattern Rosetta Stones - Named Pattern Identification
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tXv ... r8uy8/edit

For more pattern examples, please look under "Art" in the Table of Contents here
https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknow ... m/www/home

For information and identification of vintage steel barrels please see
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... l8GsAWd-KI
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnR ... tPYVA/edit
You will need to accurately describe any marks/names on the shotgun action and barrel; a picture would be even better

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Please do not post here if seeking information regarding the SAFETY of vintage barrels; see viewtopic.php?f=5&t=366087

For vintage SHOTGUN identification see viewtopic.php?f=5&t=423424

In order to identify your Damascus pattern, you MUST post a full size, in focus, high resolution, close up image; like this

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I only need to see about 9" of barrel and please pick the section where the contrast is most apparent. Images are best taken outdoors with partial sun.

More than 100 year old pattern welded barrels usually turn "plum" with age, and the pattern contrast fades. The contrast may still be apparent in a protected area such as under the forend

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If the barrels have been blued at some point (sometimes to conceal the fact that they are Damascus), usually a faint crolle pattern will still be present

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Or you can dab white vinegar on a soft cotton cloth and rub the barrel in a protected area (under the forend where it will not show) and the blue may fade and contrast show.

Image posting instructions are here
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=460765

Please do not send images to me by email. Cybersecurity is so complex today that I will not open any attachment.



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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: Damascus & Vintage Steel Barrel Identification
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Location: AZ (heart in KS)
It is important to recognize that U.S. gunmakers labeled their barrels with any name the Marketing Dept. creatively chose ;)

The Ithaca Gun Co. Fluid Steel barrel offerings evolved in the Lewis and Flues models eras. The Field grade was listed as both “Smokeless Powder Steel” and “Smokeless Steel”; in some catalogs preceded by “Imported”. The No. 1 was listed with “Nitro Steel”; the No. 1 Special with both “Imported Nitro Steel” and “Cockerill Steel”. Krupp Steel had been offered on the No. 4 and above from 1901, and eventually was added as an option for the No. 3 and No. 2 by at least 1910.
c. 1901 - 1903 No. 3 and above models have been identified with “Crown Steel” marked on the top of the barrels. “Best Fluid Steel” was also offered on the high grade guns.

Without composition analysis we cannot KNOW if there was a difference between the various named steels. The vast majority of utility grade single and double barrels were likely Decarbonized Steel, possibly rephosphorized and “cold rolled” for greater strength. “Mild” Low Carbon and Low Alloy “Plain” Steels were in general industrial use by the 1870s. Barrels, and especially frames were also AISI 1018 or 1020, both of which are easily “Carburized” or Color Case Hardened.
Higher grade guns had higher grade steel; AISI 1030 - 1045 (possibly rephosphorized) and alloy steels; Nickel Steel, Vickers, Delcour-Dupont, Cockerill Acier Universel or Acier Special, Siemens-Martin, Krupp Fluss Stahl, Wittener Excelsior Stahl, or Whitworth on the highest grades.
Krupp Fluss Stahl (Homogeneous Fluid Steel) was introduced about 1890 and by reported composition was similar to AISI 1045 which has an industrial standard tensile strength of 85,000 psi.

Actual composition analysis of pre-WWI barrels:
1. 1898 Hunter Arms “Armor Steel” was similar to AISI 1211 Rephosphorized Resulfurized Low Alloy Steel / 1045 Carbon Steel.
2. c. 1900 Crescent “Wilson’s Welded Steel” was Bessemer Rephosphorized Carbon Steel similar to AISI 1017
3. c. 1910 Meriden Fire Arms “Armory Steel” was Bessemer Rephosphorized Carbon Steel similar to AISI 1211 / 1016 Steel.
4. A pre - WWI Parker “Titanic” barrel (courtesy of Dave Suponski) was AISI 1030 with low concentrations of nickel and chromium.
5. A pre - WWI Parker “Trojan” barrel (courtesy of Dave Suponski) was AISI 1035.
6. A pre - WWI Parker “Vulcan” (courtesy of Ron Graham) was AISI 1015.

Post-WWI barrels:
Immediately post-WWI “Fluid Steel” barrels appear to be primarily AISI 1030 or 1040 Carbon Steel, possibly rephosphorized, with alloy steels appearing on higher grade guns; Krupp and Winchester Nickel Steel, Poldi Antikorro, Böhler Antinit.

The 1918 Sears catalog states the Hunter Arms Fulton Gladiator “barrels are made of a high grade carbon steel, having a tensile strength of 85 to 95 thousand pounds to the square inch.” The ‘LLH’ mark of Laurent Lochet-Habran is frequently found on Fulton and L.C. Smith Royal, Armor, London, Crown and even Nitro Steel barrels from 1914 to 1948, and also Fox, Ithaca, Lefever, Crescent, and Baker guns. This figure may therefore reflect the strength of post-WWI Belgian ‘rough forged tubes’ used by most U.S. makers.

Walt Snyder graciously shared a 1919 Ithaca Gun Co. letter from A.P. Curtis, General Manager requested tensile strength testing on a section “cut from a barrel made in Belgium” to be performed by E.J. Stormer of Racine, Wisconsin. The letter did not indicate if the barrels were “Smokeless Powder Steel” used on the Field grade, “Fluid Steel” or “Nitro Steel” used on the No. 1 and No. 1 1/2, or Cockerill Steel used on the No. 1 Special (discontinued that year). Tensile strength was reported to be “about 70,000” psi. Composition was similar to AISI 1030.

A post-WWI Parker “Vulcan” barrel (courtesy of Dave Suponski) was AISI 1030.

Composition analysis by Optical Emission Spectroscopy (OES) of a c. 1925 Crescent Fire Arms “Genuine Armory Steel” barrel with the ‘LLH’ mark of Laurent Lochet-Habran showed it to be Rephosphorized AISI 1040 Steel with a measured Tensile Strength of 104,000 psi.

AISI 1040 would have a similar tensile strength, but NOT corrosion resistance, as AISI 4140 Chrome Moly developed in the 1920s, and what is now a standard barrel steel. AISI 8620 is a chromium, molybdenum, nickel low alloy steel often used for modern shotgun frames, and is easily carburized and machined when annealed.

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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Damascus & Vintage Steel Barrel Identification
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:30 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1838
Location: AZ (heart in KS)
Steel Tensile STRENGTH summary
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnR ... tPYVA/edit

Crolle Damascus and Twist: 55,000 psi
“Cold Rolled” Decarbonized Steel & AISI 1020: 65,000 psi
c. 1900 “Fluid Steel” (Siemens-Martin & Krupp Open Hearth Steel): 75,000 – 85,000 psi
AISI 1040: 95,000 - 100,000 psi
AISI 4140, Winchester Nickel Steel, and Marlin “Special Smokeless Steel”: 100,000 – 105,000 psi
Remington Ordnance Steel: 110,000 psi

Those values refer to NON-HEAT TREATED steel. Heat treating is commonly performed on shotgun actions and rifle receivers and can significantly increase tensile strength.

Tensile strength is only a part of the equation for estimating bursting pressure. If the barrel is made of Twist with a 50,000 psi tensile strength, that does NOT mean that it will withstand a 10,000 psi load by a factor of 5.

Barlow's formula P=2 S t / D
P=Bursting pressure in psi.
S=Tensile strength of material in tube wall.
t=Wall thickness in inches.
D=Outside diameter in inches.

Barlow’s refers to a pipe capped at both ends with a static pressure (a pressure cylinder). Shotgun barrels are not designed to be pressure vessels as one end is open and the pressure rises and falls quickly.

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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: Damascus & Vintage Steel Barrel Identification
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:15 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1838
Location: AZ (heart in KS)
At the turn-of-the-century, during the transition from Damascus to Fluid Steel shotgun barrels, Damascus and Twist tubes were MORE expensive than fluid steel. Some Belgian makers offered "Damascus Finish" barrels; a roll-graved or décalcomanie pattern on decarbonized or fluid steel, which were imported and sold by U.S. sporting goods dealers and hardware stores

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Despite the gun shop lore, NO U.S. MAKER OFFERED FAUX DAMASCUS BARRELS

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Yn- ... qGkFE/edit

_________________
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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: Damascus & Vintage Steel Barrel Identification
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
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Location: AZ (heart in KS)
The "Creative Marketing" award goes to a Lefever AA with "Finest A-1 Quality Silver Steel Damascus Highest Proof" :D 4 Iron "Turkish" possibly by Sir Thomas Kilby

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2nd place to the patterns available on the Remington Hammerless Model of 1894:
Boston N. (Horse-shoe pattern), Boston 2 S.J. (2 Iron Crolle), Oxford 2 & 4 S.J. (2 & 3 Iron Crolle in several different patterns), Chain J., Etoile 3. B.P., Legia P., Washington N 3. B.P. (American Flag), Chine P. ('mottled'), Ohonon 6 S.T. (Herring-bone), and Pieper P. :shock:

and "Remington Arms" Two Iron Crolle; likely a Presentation Grade

Image

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DaS ... mUQME/edit

_________________
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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: Damascus & Vintage Steel Barrel Identification
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:20 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 4224
Location: Western Tampa, FL
How on earth was chain link Damascus made? That had to be a very esoteric art form even during Damascus's halcyon days.


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 Post subject: Re: Damascus & Vintage Steel Barrel Identification
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:11 pm 
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Location: AZ (heart in KS)
These are "lopin" or billet examples on display at Département des Armes, Le Grand Curtius, Liege
http://www.grandcurtiusliege.be/

Top, left to right: 1. Rampant Lion; 2. Chain; 3. Boston, a symmetric large scroll 2 iron Crolle; 4. Chine’ (Note the tiny 'donut hole')
Bottom, left to right: 1. Star, American Flag, or Etoile'; 2. A higher grade Damas Crolle, probably 3 or 4 iron; 3. Washington; 4. Obviously similar lopin to Boston, but probably used for 2 Iron Oxford which was asymmetric.

Image

Illustration of Chain lopin and rod being twisted from http://www.StahlUndSeide.de

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Finished product

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Steve Culver has done an extraordinary job explaining complex "Word" patterns here
http://www.culverart.com/Word%20Damascu ... tterns.pdf

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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: Damascus & Vintage Steel Barrel Identification
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:53 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 4224
Location: Western Tampa, FL
Thank you very much. I have always wondered how they made some of the wonderful patterns that are seen. It seems like the key was to have the pattern done in the initial billets. Fabulous stuff and incredible craftsmanship.


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 Post subject: Re: Damascus & Vintage Steel Barrel Identification
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:05 am 
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Location: AZ (heart in KS)
Much more on pattern welded production methodology here, mostly courtesy of Steve Culver
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jQP ... lB0JM/edit

and historical information
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xyl ... KWCXc/edit

La Fabrication des Canons Damas
Film du Musee de la Vie Wallonne tourne a Nessonvaux en 1925 et 1931
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa9dlvRDuQU

_________________
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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: Damascus & Vintage Steel Barrel Identification
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:38 pm 
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There is confusion as to Bernard I and Bernard II patterns
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fMs ... 0fXb0/edit

This is the Damascus sample display in the Buchsenmacher u. Jagdmuseum of Ferlach, Austria courtesy of Charles A. Herzog Sr. and Richard B. Hoover. Unfortunately the sample segments could not be removed from the display cases so the images were taken through the glass

Image

Bernard I; the bottom acid etched

Image

Acid etched Bernard I

Image

Bernard II

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c. 1900 product brochure illustration for N.J. Higny showing Quality No. 1 and 2 Bernard not much help
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20higny%20gb.htm

Image

Bernard variants in Joseph Juleinond de Nessonvaux samples, unfortunately not labeled :(

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Parker Bernard, and likely Bernard I

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More distinct rosettes and likely Bernard II

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American Arms Co. Fox Gun Side-swing No. 8 offered with Bernard in 1881
https://books.google.com/books?id=rEkhAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA242&lpg

Colt

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Possibly Bernard I

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Remington 1875 Whitmore with Bernard I

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and of course numerous U.S. smiths used Lindner actions and barrels. This is a Wm. R. Schaefer & Son, Boston

Image

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"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: Damascus & Vintage Steel Barrel Identification
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:41 pm 
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Location: AZ (heart in KS)
Pre-WWI Remington shotgun barrel steel
https://www.remingtonsociety.org/forums ... 22&t=26698

Marlin shogun barrel steel
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ub ... ber=561836

_________________
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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Damascus & Vintage Steel Barrel Identification
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:46 pm 
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Location: AZ (heart in KS)
Winchester Nickel Steel was introduced for the Model 1894 rifle in catalog No. 55 August 1895 with the introduction of the .30WCF.
Period reports claimed an ultimate tensile strength of 100,000 - 108,000 psi.
Ordnance Steel was initially used on the Model 12, then Nickel Steel until 1926 when it was discontinued, reportedly for corrosion and barrel failures, and was replaced by an unknown composition “Winchester Stainless Steel” with a “Japanned” (black lacquer) finish.

A post by Mike Hunter in 2015
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/g ... ver-steel/
“Winchester’s Nickle Steel had 3 1/2 % nickel and .30%-.40% carbon. I know that Winchester sourced this steel from the Midvale and Crucible Steel Companies.”

I tested a probably pre-1920 Model 12 Nickel Steel barrel and it is non-standard (just slightly low nickel at 3.17%, standard is 3.25-3.75%; and slightly low manganese) AISI 2340 medium carbon low alloy steel.
C - .39% (.38-.43)
Mn - .65% (.7-.9)
Sulfur and Phosphorus both < .04%
Cr - .08%
Mo - <0.01%

Yield strength - 100,000 psi
Ultimate tensile strength - 124,000 psi
% elongation – 19

Winchester Proof Steel was introduced in 1931 for the Model 21 and in 1932 for the Model 12; and was reported in Winchester advertisements to have an ultimate tensile strength of 115,000 - 120,000 psi and an elastic limit of 105,000 psi.

From a 1934 Winchester salesman’s manual reproduced in The Rifleman’s Rifle Winchester's Model 70, p.23:
“Proof Steel. Winchester pioneered the alloy steel field by the production of heat treated nickel steel barrels thirty years ago…”
“Two or three years ago our metallurgists together with those of one of the greatest steel companies in the country, produced a new alloy. This new alloy was a chrome molybdenum steel which was capable of being tempered to a greater strength and resistance to wear, and still be in a machinable state, than any other alloy yet discovered.”
“Winchester decided to coin the name ‘Winchester Proof-steel’ which would be Winchester’s guarantee that it would be the finest alloy steel known at the time.”

Winchester Model 12 owner’s manual in the 1960s state “Only the finest of gun steels-WINCHESTER Proof (Chrome Molybdenum) Steel-is used in the manufacture of your Model 12.”

Image

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Catalogs in the 70s state Proof Steel was “cold forged Chrome Molybdenum”.

Winchester's Finest The Model 21 by Ned Schwing states Chrome Molybdenum alloy.

I just tested a 1937 Model 12 “Winchester Proof Steel” and it is non-standard (low chromium and slightly high molybdenum with a low concentration of nickel) AISI 4135 medium carbon low alloy steel
Carbon – .34% (0.33 - 0.38)
Manganese - .76% (0.7 - .9)
Chromium - .62% (0.8 - 1.1)
Molybdenum - .30% (0.15 - 0.25)
Nickel - .09% (< .01)

Yield strength – 79,500 psi
Ultimate tensile strength – 107,000 psi
% elongation – 12
(Industrial standard for non-heat-treated 4135: Yield – 75,000; Ultimate – 110,000 psi. 4135 may be heat treated to much higher strength.)

It is of course possible that Winchester later specified 4140. I have not been able to find the source of the steel.


https://nhba.yale.edu/assets/uploads/fi ... alogue.pdf
The 1950 Winchester catalog lists the Model 37 barrels as “Winchester proof marked”, as are the barrels on the Model 97; which at the turn-of-the-century to the 1930s was listed as having “rolled steel”. This is likely Winchester Standard Ordnance Steel “cold rolled” Bessemer/Decarbonized steel.

Image

I have not found the M97 listed with Nickel Steel.

In the same catalog the Model 24 is listed with “high quality steel” barrels.

Image

_________________
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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: Damascus & Vintage Steel Barrel Identification
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:20 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1838
Location: AZ (heart in KS)
BTW: I would very much like to send a chunk of M97 "Winchester rolled steel", M12 "Winchester Proof Steel" from the 50s, and M12 Stainless Steel for composition analysis. Marlin "Special Smokeless Steel" or Remington "Ordnance Steel" would be of interest also.
The testing lab only needs an about 2" section for chemical analysis; an about 5" section for that and tensile strength testing.
AND I'm still searching for Hunter Arms Crown and Nitro steel barrels to test.

There is a summary of the testing done so far here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnR ... tPYVA/edit

You may send me a PM or email [email protected] if you have a junk barrel to contribute.



_________________
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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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