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 Post subject: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:17 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:56 am
Posts: 6
Would appreciate your comments on a Model 12 16 gauge.

Serial number is high 5 digits, which puts it at a 1915 according to the charts I've found.
It's a ribbed slide, 28" full choke, nickel steel barrel stamped 2-3/4".

My dilemma is that I know it's chambered for 2-9/16" shells as longer ones do not eject.
So why is the barrel stamped 2-3/4" ??

The bluing on the barrel is 10 times better than what's left on the receiver.
Is it possible that it has a factory replacement barrel on it?
Other than a patent date of 1913, and being stamped nickel, is there a way to determine age of the barrel itself?

I really do not use it anymore as I ran out of paper center shells many years ago.
But as it sits, it is unusable without purchasing special ammo.
I've often thought about having the chamber opened so it will eject 2-3/4" shells, but was advised against it negatively affecting value.

if it is indeed a mismatched weapon, can I assume value has already been degraded?




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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:57 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:16 pm
Posts: 3438
Location: New England
.

Welcome to SGW ! ! {hs#

Yep - a later 2/34" chambered barrel was installed on an older receiver.

IMO, there would be no change in value if it's a shooter; but it would a big change/dip in value for an otherwise high-condition gennie.

The chamber doesn't need to be "opened, as it's already 2-3/4" as indicated - the feed mechanism might need to be altered, and/or the ejection port opened up for the longer shells.

If the receiver/stock is in excellent (95%+) original condition, I would hunt down a proper barrel for it, to retain value.

If it's not in excellent condition (aka: a "shooter") then the changes will make little difference in it's value (value being the amount someone would pay for it today, not whenever).

FWIW, Winchester once offered replacement (mail order) barrels, which are ID via a circled "P" stamped on them.
.

_________________
["CriscoKid", alias: Fat in the Can]


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:31 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:56 am
Posts: 6
Thanks for the response.

I never noticed it before, but there is indeed a "P" within a circle right by where it says 2-3/4 FULL.
There is also a "W" within a circle, as well as a both a W and a P within the same circle right at the end of the receiver.

I do not know if my Grandfather purchased the weapon new, but it has been in the family since before the 40's as my Father used it as a boy.

Do you know when this replacement offer was honored, and if the original was returned as a core?
I have no knowledge of an extra barrel ever being known to exist.

I will try and post photos, but I do not have high speed internet.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:25 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:18 am
Posts: 173
Is the serial number the same on the receiver and barrel assembly?


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:00 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:56 am
Posts: 6
Yes serial numbers match.
However the barrel itself does not carry a number.
It is separate from the assembly that holds the barrel.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:45 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:56 am
Posts: 6
Trying to post pictures:
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:24 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:56 am
Posts: 6
As you can see in the pictures, the bluing on the barrel is 10x darker than the receiver.
More interested in comments on opening the chamber to eject 2-3/4" shells affecting value.
I do not know if pictures equate to a "shooter" or something better.

I see a few older posts from peeps who could do the modification, but nothing recent.
Anyone close to WI that does chamber work?
Would be very leery shipping this back and forth to an unknown vender.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:48 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:26 pm
Posts: 3422
Nu-Line Guns in Rhineland, MO is a Model 12 specialist. They bought Winchester's inventory of Model 12 & 97 parts. Check their website and give them a call. They are qualified to work on your Model 12.

DF

Montani Semper Liberi


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:19 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:18 am
Posts: 173
That’s called a “mail order proof”, the barrel has been replaced on the gun.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:23 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:44 pm
Posts: 2449
Location: Michigan
Have you tried to eject a spent 2 3/4 in shell????
The opening in the receiver does not have to measure 2 3/4 inches
for the spent shell to be ejected!!

It seems that he gun has been OK for all these years and now suddenly it is not!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:33 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:16 pm
Posts: 3438
Location: New England
GravelyGuy wrote:

Image

More interested in comments on opening the chamber to eject 2-3/4" shells affecting value.



Aside from the chambering, the value is what it is, due to not having the original barrel.

The barrel doesn't need to be opened for 2-3/4" shells, as it's obviously marked that it already has a 2-3/4" chamber.

As mentioned above, just cycle 2-3/4" shells from the magazine into the chamber to determine if there are any feeding or ejection issues with the shell lifter and/or the receiver's ejection port.


.

_________________
["CriscoKid", alias: Fat in the Can]


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:22 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 4985
Location: WA/AK
It is not the chamber that needs work. The ejection port needs to be milled a bit longer. A correct barrel for such a 1915 vintage gun would be stamped "Model 1912" not "Model 12." In the 1918 catalog Winchester began transitioning from Model 1912 to Model 12. The matted top surface on that barrel was a fairly scarce option on Model 1912/12s.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:07 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:44 pm
Posts: 2449
Location: Michigan
Does that mean my Ithaca needs to be machined to a larger opening?
My pre-war gun measure's at 2 5/8 inch opening.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:45 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:56 am
Posts: 6
I apologize for misusing the word "chamber".
I am referring to the ejection port (?) on the receiver as what would need work.
I have fired full crimp 2-3/4" plastic shells, and they do NOT eject.

The opening in the receiver is only 2-3/8" and works fine for 2-9/16" roll crimp paper shells.
Never had similar plastic shells.

Can one safely fire 2-3/4" slugs through the full choke barrel that I have?
Being that they are not center crimped, the fired length should be short enough to eject.

Researcher01, I will say I agree with your thought on the full ribbed barrel.
I haven't even seen pictures of another with it.
Is there a method of determining when it was likely exchanged?
Based on your comment I would say between 1918 and the depression.
I doubt my Grandfather could have afforded it after.

Too bad no one is alive to provide first hand information.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 factory mis-match?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:55 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 4985
Location: WA/AK
Certainly have no idea when the barrel was swapped into the gun. I suspect the roll-stamping on that barrel originally looked like this --

Image

and whoever swapped it onto the OPs gun added the 2 3/4.




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