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German pre WWII aftermarket accessories for Browning Auto 5s

17K views 20 replies 8 participants last post by  sauerfan 
#1 ·
Gentlemen,

it might be interesting for you to get an idea about the German relationship to the A5, 'cause this will be a lesser known story.

OK, when Browning's Automatic shotgun appeared on the market in Germany, it caused a stir - like in most other countries also. The hunting journals of the time period until the outbreak of WWI are full with articles about pro/contra of the gun. Well, most German hunters just loved it. Consequently, it was a big hit here. Due to sales success, other tried to get their share of the cake by promoting improvements and accessories for the A5. I like to present some of these, which were sold also with success. At least, some of them.

1/ the "Tesco-Schiene" (Tesco rail). A known problem of the early A5s is: it has no rail. The company G. Teschner & Co (maker of the Collath drillings and shotguns) in Frankfurt/Oder solved this problem. Their Tesco rail was advertised from at least 1910 until the end of the twenties (at least). Shown here are the drawings from German patent 276384 (filed October 23, 1913), a photo from a German hunting magazine "Das Schießwesen" dated June 12, 1910 and a page from a 1913 dated Akah catalog.







2/ an other idea to get a rail on the A5 was a little different: a higher forearm forming a rail as advertised in the 1913 Akah catalog.



3/ yet another rail was advertised in the thirties: a clip-on rail invented by Graf (Count) Wolfgang von Bethusy-Huc. Interestingly, it was offered only for the 16 ga A5s. Image comes from the 1940 Akah catalog.



4/ the "cartridge counter", also invented and sold by G. Teschner & Co. This is a very simple device: a slot is cut in the forearm and the magazine tube, the slot is closed with a piece of celluloid. Now you can see the cartridges in the magazine. Images are from the 1913 Genschow & Co. (Geco) catalog and from the journal of German hunting association ADJV, dated May 03, 1911. There you can see also a square recoil spring, it seems?





5/ a quiet complicated dust cover. This was patented by German patent # 241409, which was filed in German Patent Office on January 29, 1910. Owner of the patent were Dr. Gustav Fritsch and O. Geyger & Co. in Berlin. The latter is known for taking over the representation of J. P. Sauer & Sohn in Berlin after 1930.

The dust cover is connected with the carrier assembly: when the dust cover is open, the carrier is pushed up, so that more than only one cartridge may be loaded at one time. The drawing comes from the patent; the image is from the 1913 Geco catalog.





6/ another idea for blocking the carrier: a "Zubringersperre" (Carrier lock or interlock) installed instead of the normal carrier latch button. I did not quiet understand, how it works, but it seems to have worked, as this was advertised at least until 1940. Image comes from the 1913 Akah catalog. Note also the type 2 safety in the drawing.



7/ And now for my favourite: the automatic safety! I liked to have one! Just a masterpiece of "things you don't need but which are pretty cool and make a nice toy". Inventor was a Major Roth, but the relating German patent #248194 (filing date: October 27, 1911) belonged to the company Otto Bock in Berlin, a company which was well-known at that time.

The safety does consist of a leverage with a toggle link influenced by a leaf spring. If you grasp the stock, the leverage will push the (type 2) safety forward. If you take your hand off the gun, the spring will press on the toggle link and the safety will move back securing the gun.

Images are from the patent, from the journal "Das Schießwesen", May 23, 1912, page 23 and from the 1913 Geco catalog.







I don't think, that this odd safety was a big success and I probably will never find one. But I hope, I will.

Best regards

Martin
 
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#2 ·
Martin,

That is more "new" stuff, all in one post than I have seen all together in the last 2 years.

It's truely remarkable!

I saw one of those unusual carrier latch buttons once but could not figure out what the purpose was. We had some old posts with pictures of one of them.

Unfortunately they last of member of my wifes family that speaks german (Gunars Meierovics) passed away....Can you translate the advertisement and let us know what this button actually did?

And as you have an interes in history, search for the posts using the name "Boudinot", we had an exceptional story uncovered here in the forum a couple of years ago.

Jeff

Jeff
 
#4 ·
Destry, how you doing? Your "wow" is right on target. Lawrence K is going to wig out and want one of those automatic safeties.....talk about bizarre!

Martin, I believe that 1038 is in this picture:



Note the awful amature checkering....It will be coming off when I repair the crack in the wrist.

They are all 12's except the top gun which is a '23 sixteen gauge.

Jeff
 
#6 ·
Jeff,

Thanks for your kind words.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find the post where the carrier latch button has been discussed. I liked to see one of these buttons. I made a translation of the ad for the "Zubringersperre". Here it is:

"New Carrier latch lock
for Browning shot guns
D.R.G.M.

For loading the Browning shot it was necessary up to now to press down the carrier latch for every cartridge what often caused injuries of the fingers, especially at cold temperatures with clammy fingers.

The new carrier latch lock is holding the carrier latch in its upmost position thereby making loading much more easier.

The new carrier latch lock doesn't require any different hand movement compared with the standard shotgun without the carrier lock.

No. 6535 Carrier latch lock (Double button) D.R.G.M. ready for installation (for gun smiths)---- 5 marks each
No. 6536 Carrier latch lock assembled in a Browning shotgun (after shipping the gun on own costs) ----- 8 Marks each"

Unfortunately, there is no technical information, how it works. It is a double button design - but how it was installed…. I don't know.

Thanks for pointing me to the Boudinot gun. I guess, you mean these two posts:

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=109584&start=0

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=104926

An interesting piece of history.

Thanks also for showing the photo with your 1903! Wow, that's the sort of guns I like and like to own!

Regards

Martin
 
#7 ·
So, this carrier button was there to facilitate speed loading, which Val Browning addressed with the 2 piece lifter in 1953......

Those are the right posts, an interesting story about a neat gun during a tragic period of history. The world is a smaller place now and the worl wide web facilitates friendships that oceans and national borders cannot block.

Were more intertwined now....example:

My first father in law, Frank Evan served with the US Army in the landings at Anzio, Italy....my second father in law Gunars Meierovics and his brother Helmut were in the Latvian Legion wearing Waffen SS uniforms and facing the Russians. Helmut was one of the (very) few survivors of Russian POW and forced labor camps in Siberia and was allowed to return to Latvia sometime in the mid 1950's.

Kind regards,

Jeff
 
#8 ·
I once had an A5 "dust cover". I got it as a kid in an old gun shop and Dad's gunsmith told us that it was off of a pre-WWII POS A8. I have never seen an A8 Police with one, though. Don't know what ever happened to that thing. It may be around here....... somewhere. :lol:
 
#9 ·
Jeff,

Oh yes, the internet is a great thing! Since 2000 or so I met wonderful persons around the world, shared and gathered knowledge I did not have any access to before.

And it is much easier now to find the good stuff. I bought nice gun relating items in the US, as well as pistols and long guns. The world is smaller now and this is a good development.

Regards

Martin

P.S: Meanwhile I know what "to wig out" means….. Thanks to you and thanks to

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wig

(But who is "Lawrence K" ?)

A5guy,

Was this just a dust cover or a dust cover like the one discussed above under point 5 (a dust cover which facilitates speed loading)?

Regards

Martin
 
#11 ·
Martin,

Lawrence is a regular reader of posts here and many other forums. However he rarely posts.

Lawrence always shows up at the local trap and skeet club with the strangest collection of shotguns.....they regularly include guns ranging from a Darne, Bayard hammer side by sides, Ithaca NID Magnum, Browning designed Savage 620 pump gun etc....

The stranger the gun the more likely he'll like it.

He just might post a note now that were talking about him.

Jeff

ps: the urban dictionary is a great source, if you read something that you dont understand just look it up in the urban dictionary and "bob's your uncle"
 
#12 ·
Jeff,

thanks for your explanations. I see, Lawrence likes the obscure. So be careful when he likes to show you his newest pocket watch - it could be something completely different, ha, ha (this is an American invention of 1912, by the way)



Regards

Martin
 
#14 ·
sauerfan said:
6/ another idea for blocking the carrier: a "Zubringersperre" (Carrier lock or interlock) installed instead of the normal carrier latch button. I did not quiet understand, how it works, but it seems to have worked, as this was advertised at least until 1940. Image comes from the 1913 Akah catalog. Note also the type 2 safety in the drawing.
I believe we've seen this before on an unusual 16ga a few years ago. Along with what I believe was this modification, the stock of the gun had cheeks where it met the receiver.

The gun was on auctionarms and I was bidding against the new/now owner. After the auction he came to this site looking for some education. Seems he developed an affinity for 16 ga's as he had also recently bought a 16ga Winchester model 12.
 
#15 ·
Hi 3rdbuttondown,

thanks for advising. After a while, I found said old topic:

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=60094

Fortunately, the link to the photo still works! Here it is:

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u302 ... auto-5.jpg

Yep, I'm quiet sure: this is said carrier lock shown in the ad under #6 above. Also, I'm quiet sure, this is a gun used in Germany before it came to the US. The style of the stock is typical German, I'd say: cheek piece, flat pistol grip with steel pistol grip cap. The cap exactly like present on German guns of the twenties (my 1928 made Sauer drilling has a similar pistol grip cap).

Anyway: too bad, "willy30" wasn't active here since 2007 or so. I guess, he would like to have the info.

Regards

Martin
 
#16 ·
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=111964&p=893549#p893549

Sauerfan,

I think the thread above will also be of interest.

Here's a description how that two piece carrier release works:

"BOLT OPEN-you have to push both buttons, and it releases the bolt. (small one alone doesnt do anything)

BOLT CLOSED- you have to push both buttons to release carrier.(small one alone doesnt do anything)

Once you release carrier, push carrier upwards, release both buttons. now press small button, and it locks the carrier in the upright position, and you can load shells till next sunday, without the carrier in the way. push the small button again, and it releases the carrier to the down position.

It makes sense now, you can load faster, without releasing the carrier for each shell."
 
#17 ·
Hi 3rdbuttondown,

thanks for the link and for explanation! Ah, now I know how the button works and how it is designed: It's a two piece button with the smaller arranged coaxial within the larger button. Good to know! BTW: Actually, this post (your link to it) is the one I was referring to - I just copied the wrong link.

Regards

Martin
 
#18 ·
Gentlemen,

while going through old German gun journals I bought recently, I found an exciting short article in „Das Schießwesen" of 11th May, 1902, page 38:



Translation:

"An automatic shotgun system Browning will be produced and marketed in America soon. It seems to be the same system [design] the Fabrique National d'Armes de Guerre in Liège is dealing with at present. Pr."

In find this short rumor exciting, because the contract between John Moses Browning and FN was signed the 24th March 1902 (Shirley/Vanderlinden page 54)- only 1 ½ months later it was an open secret.

I don't know, if this little footnote is holding the world record re. first mentioning of the A-5 in a publication - but this date is hard to beat!

BTW: the short signature "Pr." is from Albert Preuß, a known German expert for hunting guns and author of several books. At that time, he was the Manager of a private owned Testing Institute for ballistics and testing of hunting guns. Obviously, he belonged to the well informed circles!

Best regards

Martin
 
#20 ·
Everybody, my apologies. Ive been gone from the site for last couple years. Lost both parents back to back 2007-08, and have not been able to spend time on the hobby.

I got on the site this morning, and by chance I found this information on the carrier latch. what a wealth of information. Up till now I have not found a blurb of information on that carrier button. it must not have been too popular. like electric windows on a car, when they came out. ( now try to find a roll-up on a new car).

I use that 16ga for quail, and it swings so nice, and patterns well. never have had a problem with it.

Thanks, Bill
 
#21 ·
willy30 said:
Everybody, my apologies. Ive been gone from the site for last couple years. Lost both parents back to back 2007-08, and have not been able to spend time on the hobby.

I got on the site this morning, and by chance I found this information on the carrier latch. what a wealth of information. Up till now I have not found a blurb of information on that carrier button. it must not have been too popular. like electric windows on a car, when they came out. ( now try to find a roll-up on a new car).

I use that 16ga for quail, and it swings so nice, and patterns well. never have had a problem with it.

Thanks, Bill
Hi Bill,

welcome back!

I'm sorry to hear you lost your parents. I can understand well what this must have meant to you… I lost my mother in 1999….

Anyway: I'm glad you like my info. Honestly, I liked the photos of your gun with this device making it possible for me to understand how it looks like and how it really works.

If this device was popular or not: good question. But it was advertised in (German) catalogs until at least 1940. Consequently, there must have been a market for this. But your gun is the only one I'm aware of to exist.

Best regards

Martin
 
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