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 Post subject: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:05 pm 
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Hello, I have an 1970 A-5 in good condition, and I would like to use steel shots for skeet shoting (training). I have seen brownings recomandations regarding use of steel shot in the belgium barrels.

I am from Norway, and have been looking for a aftermarket or japanese barrel for a long time without any results. Export from US is very expensive and is a lot of work.

So I just found information regarding the CIP standards for shotgun ammunition, witch several countries in Europe follow. The standard ammunition is supposed to be safe for all existing shotguns that are made for smokless gun powder.

So my question is; is it safe to use these shots in my browning auto 5, without risking damage to the barrel? does anybody else use them?




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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:41 pm 
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If your barrel is choked IC or Modified, I would shoot steel in it. If your barrel is a full choked one, don't use steel.

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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:00 am 
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Thank you for your reply :) The barrel has been opened to modified.


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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:05 am 
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Skjarlie wrote:
So my question is; is it safe to use these shots in my browning auto 5, without risking damage to the barrel? does anybody else use them?


Quote:
The standard ammunition is supposed to be safe for all existing shotguns that are made for smokless gun powder.


No, it is not. Nor is "standard steel" supposed to be safe for all guns. If a barrel is "standard steel proof" than it is considered suitable for standard steel.

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/features/gunsmiths-report-increase-in-shotguns-ruined-by-steel-shot-14340

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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:53 am 
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Found this article, witch does not mention the 930 bar test that was in the article you linked to.

http://www.gma.vic.gov.au/hunting/duck/hunting-methods/non-toxic-shot/steel-shot-standards-pressures-and-proofing

Quote:
A CIP Working Group was set up to study the effects of steel in existing British and European shotguns and to provide limits of performance that, if complied with, would ensure a safe level of performance.

In 1992, after several years of study, the Working Group presented its findings which define levels of performance for what was defined as Standard Steel Shot Cartridges which could be used in any 12 gauge shotgun that had been nitro-proofed. A higher level of performance had been set for steel shot to be used in shotguns designed for steel shot and which have been Steel Shot proofed (see Diagram 1).

In deciding on the limits for Standard Steel Shot cartridges, CIP had to take into account the worst case condition of barrel strength and choke profile of existing shotguns, without the requirement for reproof, and with shotguns of different age, make and construction. Not only were limits set for pressure, velocity, momentum and shot size, to take into account the worst condition of barrel strength and section, but also the steepest angle of choke and also the possibility of full choke in one of the barrels.


according to this article the CIP standard shots are made for all shotguns with nitro-approval, or is my interpretation wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:55 am 
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Skjarlie wrote:

according to this article the CIP standard shots are made for all shotguns with nitro-approval, or is my interpretation wrong?


Your interpretation is wrong. Nitro-proof and steel-proof are not the same.

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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:32 am 
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Okay, Thank you for your reply :)


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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Actually, your interpretation is correct, Skjarlie. CIP does indeed say that "Standard Steel" ammunition is appropriate in all firearms (in good condition, obviously) that are "nitro" or standard proofed.

CIP has established two levels of ammunition with steel shot, "Standard Steel" and "High Performance Steel".

Only the latter requires a steel-proofed gun with a Fleur-di-Lis stamp on the barrel flats.

"Standard Steel" ammunition will be fine in your Auto-5. It is pretty anemic stuff, though. It has limits on shot size, velocity, momentum and chamber pressure that are well below the norm.


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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Oblio13 wrote:
CIP does indeed say that "Standard Steel" ammunition is appropriate in all firearms (in good condition, obviously) that are "nitro" or standard proofed.



That isn't the case at all. It surely isn't appropriate in any tightly constricted standard barrel.

Moreover, Browning for many years clearly warns not to use steel shot in any A-5 Belgium barrels, regardless of choke.

The problem is well-known and widely reported.

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/buy-gu ... ot-2-21604

Image

As to what ammo is available in Norway, that's an open question, as Norway is not part of the CIP.

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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:47 pm 
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I don't know if CIP Standard Steel ammunition is available in Norway or not, but since he asked if it was appropriate, I'm assuming he knows what it is and has access to it.

Browning does indeed recommend no steel in Belgian barrels, but CIP does indeed say that "Standard Steel" will not cause damage in them. Would you like me to cut and paste it?


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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:59 pm 
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Skjarlie wrote:
Hello, I have an 1970 A-5 in good condition, and I would like to use steel shots for skeet shoting (training).

So my question is; is it safe to use these shots in my browning auto 5, without risking damage to the barrel? does anybody else use them?


You are risking damage to the barrel.

http://www.browning.com/support/frequen ... otgun.html

Quote:
. DO NO USE ANY STEEL SHOT LOADS:

The Belgian-made A-5, Superposed, Leige, and other Belgian Over/Under models, Double Automatic, American-made A-5 and all other models not listed in category 1 or 2.


The issue is not just with the choke, it is also with the forcing cone. Soft metal is soft metal, throughout the tube.

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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:03 pm 
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A barrel scored like that was not shot with steel shot cups. With open chokes and modern ammo you will be fine.


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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:07 pm 
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From the CIP information sheet summary:

"There are two types of steel shot cartridges: Standard Steel and High Performance Steel... Standard Steel cartridges can be fired through any gun proved to the standard level (ie most “Nitro” proved guns, proved to at least 930 bar) and through any choke. High Performance Steel cartridges should always be marked as such on the box and should only be fired through guns that have passed Steel Shot proof. These guns should be proved to at least 1320 bar, be stamped with "Steel Shot" and a have a Fleur de Lys proof mark.."


Last edited by Oblio13 on Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:21 pm 
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Oblio13 wrote:
From the CIP information sheet summary:

"There are two types of steel shot cartridges: Standard Steel and High Performance Steel... Standard Steel cartridges can be fired through any gun proved to the standard level (ie most “Nitro” proved guns, proved to at least 930 bar) and through any choke.


It is an embarrassingly dumb thing to publish. Everyone in the industry knows better by now, or at least should. The CIP manufactures no guns and no ammunition, and when a gun is damaged it is too bad, so sad, as they warranty nothing. It is meaningless in the United States, as we don't generally have CIP ammo.

In countries that aren't part of the CIP bureaucracy, CIP standards mean very little. Over the years, I've seen countless A-5 barrels bulged at the muzzle and with severely scored and gouged forcing cones. It doesn't take any decoding to follow Browning's statement of "DO NO USE ANY STEEL SHOT LOADS."

If you think you know better, you are on your own.

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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:35 pm 
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I do not claim to know more than Europe's proofing authorities. Do you?

Skjarlie asked a simple question, whether or not he was interpreting the CIP proofing standards correctly. He was. Didn't mean to start a pissing contest, but there it is.

The CIP spent years studying this. They fired thousands of rounds through traditional light game guns - including Brownings - to test their numbers.

You may have "seen countless A-5 barrels bulged at the muzzle and with severely scored and gouged forcing cones", but I'll bet my pension that none of that damage was caused by CIP Standard Steel ammunition - at least not without a barrel obstruction to go with it.

I'm traveling right now, but when I get home I'll post the reference material I've collected about it.


Last edited by Oblio13 on Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:05 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
No, it is not. Nor is "standard steel" supposed to be safe for all guns. If a barrel is "standard steel proof" than it is considered suitable for standard steel.


First, there is no such thing as "standard steel proof". There is plain "standard proof", which has nothing to do with steel, and then there is "steel proof", which is an additional stamp.

According to the CIP - this is not my opinion, this is what Europe's proofing authorities publish - "Standard Steel" ammunition IS appropriate for guns with standard proofs. "High Performance Steel" ammunition should only be fired from guns with steel proof stamps.

RandyWakeman wrote:
That isn't the case at all. It surely isn't appropriate in any tightly constricted standard barrel...


Actually, again, CIP does say that is the case:

"Standard Steel cartridges can be fired through any gun proved to the standard level (ie most “Nitro” proved guns, proved to at least 930 bar) and through any choke."

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what "Standard Steel" ammunition is. The term is somewhat misleading given the common usage of the word "standard". "Standard Steel" ammunition as defined by the CIP is something very specific, with low limits on chamber pressure, momentum, velocity and shot size.


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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:55 pm 
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Skjarlie wrote:
So my question is; is it safe to use these shots in my browning auto 5, without risking damage to the barrel? does anybody else use them?


You do risk damage to your barrel, the reason Browning had long published, loud and clear, "NO STEEL ALLOWED."

The CIP does not consider choke deformation or the destruction of a forcing cone a safety issue. That is the key distinction, as the original poster is not asking about safety, but "risking damage to the barrel."

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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:17 pm 
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There are three potential problems with steel shot:

1. High chamber pressures. This is a safety issue because it may cause the action to fail catastrophically. This is why no ammunition that exceeds the working limit of your gun should be fired, neither lead nor steel. Sometimes people push chamber pressures in an attempt to get more velocity out of steel. The CIP chamber pressure limit for “Standard Steel” ammunition is only 740 bar (10,733 psi). Not a factor.

2. Scoring. The abrasion of bores by contact with steel shot. Not a safety issue but it ruins barrels. Modern wads have eliminated this. No longer a factor.

3. “Ring bulges” - deformation of choke constrictions. Also not a safety issue but it, too, ruins barrels. Not nearly the problem it was when steel was first introduced, but still a concern. Most especially wad design, but also shot size, velocity, pressure, momentum, etc. are all factors. Ring bulges can also occur with lead shot. They are usually associated with some sort of bore obstruction, like snow or mud or maybe even just too much oil.

CIP set out to come up with a steel shot load that specifically addressed this. Here’s yet another cut-and-paste:

"A CIP Working Group was set up to study the effects of steel in existing British and European shotguns ... after several years of study, the Working Group presented its findings which define levels of performance for what was defined as Standard Steel Shot Cartridges which could be used in any 12 gauge shotgun that had been nitro-proofed...
In deciding on the limits for Standard Steel Shot cartridges, CIP had to take into account the worst case condition of barrel strength and choke profile of existing shotguns... of different age, make and construction. Not only were limits set for pressure, velocity, momentum and shot size, to take into account the worst condition of barrel strength and section, but also the steepest angle of choke and also the possibility of full choke in one of the barrels."

Then thousands and thousands and thousands of these Standard Steel loads were tested in light game guns, including Brownings and even a Holland & Holland side-by-side.

“No measurable damage occurred to any of the guns."

One more time, with feeling: “No measurable damage occurred to any of the guns."

In other words, CIP very deliberately engineered and then successfully tested a steel shot load that would not damage light vintage guns, even those with tight chokes and steep angles of choke. It's not a load you're going to hunt geese with, but it isn't going to bulge any barrel in good condition with a standard proof.

This is the load that Skjarlie specifically asked about for his Auto-5 with a MOD choke.

So Skjarlie, the bottom line:

If you fire high-pressure, high-velocity, large-shot steel SAAMI or CIP High Performance Steel loads through your Auto-5, you are likely to damage your barrel. It won’t blow up in your face (unless you have mud or snow or some other obstruction). You won’t score the bore. But you may get a ring bulge where the choke constricts. You obviously already understand this.

If you fire CIP “Standard Steel” ammunition from your Auto-5, well, that’s EXACTLY what it was designed and tested for.


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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:02 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: use CIP standard steel shots in Auto 5?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:14 pm 
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Oblio13 wrote:
There are three potential problems with steel shot:


There are a lot more problems than that. That's why in 2015 the Norwegian Parliament repealed the lead shot ban with the exception for wetlands and shooting ranges

This is a frequently asked question, precisely why Browning calls it a FAQ, and it gets asked frequently. The manufacturer of the supposed load is never mentioned, much less the specific load, much less whether the manufacturer claims it is safe for all shotguns, or just some.

The CIP does not tell you how to set the friction rings on an A-5, they don't tell you how to keep the forearm from cracking, and they don't tell how how to clean it or keep it from rusting. The CIP has no standing to displace manufacturer recommendations . . . they don't try. The CIP does not apply to Norway, as they are not a member state.



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