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 Post subject: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:31 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:07 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Southern oregon
This just came up on gunbroker.
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/723145823
Looks to be correctly dated as a 1929 16 gauge. It has a lot of characteristics of factory Browning engraving. The engraving pattern is very similar to the "millionth" A5 and also similar to the A5 "for Pigeons", but I don't see it anywhere else in S/V as a standard pattern. The gun has plain jane wood for an engraved A5, and I wonder if it had been sent back to the factory at a later date for engraving.




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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:04 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 10:00 am
Posts: 859
Location: South Dakota
As some of you know, this gun has a 2 9/16 chamber. I have asked the seller to send me more pics. If I get the pics I am hoping for, the price of this gun could go way up.

Being the chamber is unmolested, that is a big plus. If the whole gun is FN Factory original it is a valuable collectable. If not it is at least an attractive old A5 in the best caliber. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:29 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:41 am
Posts: 70
Goad,

I also had asked the seller for more pics, but had not received any. Maybe you will have more luck?

What is your take on the engraving pattern? Custom order? Sent back and upgraded?

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A few Auto 5s, a Baby Browning and a Superposed


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:49 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:41 am
Posts: 2162
Location: Missouri
Not an exact match, but to me it looks like an FN Type III.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:16 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 10:00 am
Posts: 859
Location: South Dakota
Rudolph31 wrote:
Not an exact match, but to me it looks like an FN Type III


Thanks for the illustrations Rudolph, I agree Type III.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:49 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 10:00 am
Posts: 859
Location: South Dakota
Oops


Last edited by Goad on Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:49 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 10:00 am
Posts: 859
Location: South Dakota
Browning90va wrote:
Sent back and upgraded?


I can only offer an educated guess. According to S/V, the FN factory farmed out all of its engraving until they brought in Felix Funken in 1926. He established the engraving school which brought the engraving inhouse. I believe this 1929 gun may be an early product of the engraving school.

I asked the seller why he believed it was 2 3/4 chambered and would he email me additional photos. I also sent him a link to the A5 16ga guide here. He responded but only stated he discovered the barrel was marked "16 65" and said he would correct the ad. He added the correction this afternoon.

The basic Grade I, II and III pattern was established but with a house full of veteran and apprentices artistic freedom was standard procedure. I have a couple of very early engraved guns. The patterns are close but they are not exactly the same. I believe this practice changed over the years as most engraving in the 30s and newer were all hand engraved by different engravers but its hard to find deviance. They look like carbon copies.

This gun was engraved when the Funken school was 2-3 years old. FN still contracted out engravers from Liege in these early years. These contracted engravers had even more creative license than the inhouse engravers.

On the grade of wood issue, Grade I, II, and III were not considered "high grade" guns. The higher grade wood is best identified by the classic "Tear Drop" wood design behind the receiver on the stock.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:49 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:41 am
Posts: 2162
Location: Missouri
Goad wrote:
Rudolph31 wrote:
Not an exact match, but to me it looks like an FN Type III


Thanks for the illustrations Rudolph, I agree Type III.


You’re welcome, Goad. But honestly it’s just something I stole from another poster here. Like this picture of a restored Type VI, showing off the “Tear Drop”.

Image

Incidentally, Art has two of these in his shop right now undergoing restoration. One belongs to the shop, Brad says it’ll be listed for “around 15”. I offered him $1500 on the spot, but of course he meant $15,000. I told him I’d rather stay married...


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:55 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:07 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Southern oregon
That's great info Goad...hadn't heard that before about the transition to in-house engraving. This A5 is clearly unique and any engraved A5 is worth serious consideration. I stewed over it for a bit before posting on this site. I'm more into old A5's in better condition with nicer wood, so I decided to pass and find out what the experts here knew about it. It'll be interesting to see how this goes...


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:20 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 10:00 am
Posts: 859
Location: South Dakota
Thanks for introducing this gun to us Rusty 16. Great name!!!

For the record I disqualify myself from the ranks of expert. At best I offer educated guess work with very limited experience as a collector. Most of my base of knowledge comes from the S/V book and Saurfans timeline post here. I also have learned from many posts on 16ga.com and members here. I do own several discoveries from experience about the A5, some are posted in the "A5 16ga Guide" some are still secrets. I was told "A wise man does not tell all he knows and the fool tells more than he knows. The "experts" discount many of my findings.

I am an avid A5 collector and a RABID 16ga A5 collector.

My highly unqualified opinion about this gun is, it could be factory original. It could also be an aftermarket Type III style engraved gun. As far as factory condition we don't have enough information. The pics we have are poor quality and we have no idea if the gun is even serviceable. Has bubba monkeyed with the internals? Who knows! matching numbers? Rust? Pitting? factory blue? Wood? All unknown. I wish it was not 2,000 miles from me.

Best case is its a factory original with provenance, standard Type III engraved, well used, in fair condition gun making it rare but not in high quality condition.

Worst case is its a broke, aftermarket engraved, non-factory, frankengun.

I love it either way for its uniqueness in the proper caliber.

If I have the good fortune or misfortune of owning it, I will showcase it in the "Guide."

I am begging the seller to send quality close up pictures of the gun disassembled.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:47 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:41 am
Posts: 70
Rudolph31 wrote:
Goad wrote:
Rudolph31 wrote:
Not an exact match, but to me it looks like an FN Type III


Thanks for the illustrations Rudolph, I agree Type III.


You’re welcome, Goad. But honestly it’s just something I stole from another poster here. Like this picture of a restored Type VI, showing off the “Tear Drop”.

Image

Incidentally, Art has two of these in his shop right now undergoing restoration. One belongs to the shop, Brad says it’ll be listed for “around 15”. I offered him $1500 on the spot, but of course he meant $15,000. I told him I’d rather stay married...[/

Rudolph,
To make it even more incidental, the other one at Arts is mine. 1928 factory 2 barrel, both solid rib, straight stock. When I bought it, it had someone’s names in the barrels and the stock was cut, should be closer to factory specs when it’s done

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A few Auto 5s, a Baby Browning and a Superposed


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:32 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:07 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Southern oregon
Wow...haven't seen too many Grade VI's come up on gunbroker....I had forgotten the illustrations that Sauerfan had posted on the FN Types. S/V, page 164, has a series of illustrations of Types l, ll and lll for 1920's A5's, but they're different patterns. Are we looking at European market vs US market patterns here?


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:07 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:41 am
Posts: 70
Rusty 16,

I think it is safe to assume that. Mainly because the picture Rudolph posted about has been marked as having no equivalent in the US for Type II and III. This seems to be correct as my Type II is the same as the US Type II show in S/V and not the same as the above Type II

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A few Auto 5s, a Baby Browning and a Superposed


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:30 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:41 am
Posts: 2162
Location: Missouri
Browning90va:

Very nice find, sir. I was there to pick up a gun and as usual walked around and found yours on a rack of Auto-5’s waiting for restoration. Very disappointed to find that the stock was cut down for a child. But Nick said they’ll make a new one that will look original. I was both disappointed and relieved to learn that it wasn’t for sale.

I only saw the receiver of other Type VI. It was in similar condition, but someone had drilled holes in the receiver to mount a scope. On a Grade VI! What’s wrong with people? Art’s will make it look like they were never there.

Please post pictures of the restored treasure!


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:17 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 10:00 am
Posts: 859
Location: South Dakota
The GB ad was edited and 8 new better quality pics were added.

It looks like a matching numbers gun. I didn't see anything that hurts its value.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:53 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:07 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Southern oregon
Looks good! Nice to see close-ups of the engraving. When did the square springs change to round? I thought maybe the early 20's would have had the square springs.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:08 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 10:00 am
Posts: 859
Location: South Dakota
I read on SW that the square coil inventory was exhausted and replaced with the round coil springs from 1923 through 1925.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:49 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:17 pm
Posts: 378
I have a 1924 straight stock 16 ga with square type spring and a 1927 12 ga with the same type if that helps for info, my guess is it was replaced at sometime in the past.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:02 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:41 am
Posts: 2162
Location: Missouri
golda5 wrote:
I have a 1924 straight stock 16 ga with square type spring and a 1927 12 ga with the same type if that helps for info, my guess is it was replaced at sometime in the past.


Same here, 1924 16 gauge.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Engraved 16 ga A5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:49 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:41 am
Posts: 70
I think I've lost my mind!!!!!



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