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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:50 pm 
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Seamus O'Caiside wrote:
The forend cover is not intended to ever be removed for cleaning or routine maintenance. The rivet must be destroyed to remove it, and a special tool is needed to fit a new rivet. It can be cleaned adequately without removing it. It is not necessary to get the thing spotless - a little powder residue inside the vent area will do no harm.


OK Thanks {hs# :D




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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:29 pm 
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DallasCMT wrote:
Seamus O'Caiside wrote:
Ehat kind of FTF? Weak firing pin strike? That usually is caused by a weak hammer spring, but I would not expect that in a gun that hasn't been shot much. Still, I think replacing the hammer spring is the first thing I would do to try to correct it (aside from cleaning, which you have already done).

I'm sorry, I meant Failure To Feed, meaning that when loading two, the 1st shell fires but the 2nd shell doesn't chamber properly. It's usually down in the receiver on top of the lifter.

Now that I've thought about this more, I may know my problem. I have noticed that the 2nd shell loads into the magazine two different ways. First, I'll toss the 1st shell in and press the load button, 1st shell is chambered. Then I'll press shell #2 in to the magazine. If I press it in far, the back of the shell sits flush with the opening of the mag tube. If I don't go that far, it seems to sit part of the way out of the mag tube, and I can see part of the shell overlapping the lifter.

In either case the gun will cycle the 2nd shell properly, but I think in the cases it hasn't fed, the shell wasn't pushed in all the way, and was visible over the lifter. Seems that if I press the 2nd shell in all the way so it feels flush with the mag tube opening, it cycles reliably each time. I need to try it with two+ shells in the mag.

I'm not sure why it behaves this way, seems like the 2nd shell would want to sit (or be held) in the same spot each time. When I noticed and realized the difference, I began pressing them in all the way, and I haven't had a failure to feed, since. Maybe that was it all along.

I also wonder if this gun an be ghost loaded, reliably. This is where you can float an extra shell over the lifter, with three in the mag tube, and one in the chamber - increasing the total capacity from 4 to 5. Many semi's can do this safely and reliably, I haven't tried it, but basically you put three in the magazine, pull and hold the bolt back partially to put one in the chamber, release the shell carrier stop button, get one in over the lifter, then close the bolt. The 301, 302, and 303 can apparently do it -

.


I've found the same thing regarding loading a shell into the magazine tube. If push the shell up into the magazine tube, the shell will load after firing. If I barely push the shell into magazine tube the shell will often drop out of the gun when I fire the first shell.

I don't know about ghosting a shell.


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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:15 am 
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I recently purchased a Beretta Al391 12 gauge used.I was planning on a thorough cleaning and to replace the ammo plug.While I was attempting to remove the cocking pin I pulled the trigger placing the gun in fired mode.Now it's all locked up and I can't remove any further or even get it back unblocked o slide into position to reassembl.Please help I'm lost.


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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:32 am 
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I'm not sure I understand exactly what your situation is, but I suspect you have the hammer forward (fired position) with the bolt in the gun but the connecting rod is not in the recoil spring follower, so everything is locked up.

That is not uncommon. Happened to me years ago with my first Beretta. What you have to do is pull the whole trigger group out of the receiver. There are instructions for that in my first post in this thread. You need to learn how to remove the trigger group, anyway, because you cannot do a good job of cleaning the gun without doing that.

First thing you do after getting the trigger group out is push the hammer back into cocked position and put the safety on. There is a little pin that can fall out if the hammer is not cocked.

When re-assembling the gun after cleaning, put the bolt in first, then the trigger group: it is a lot easier that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:25 am 
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Hello, i am facing an issue with my 391 Urica II synthetic kick off and any help would be highly appreciated.
ONLY when i am shooting at vertical position (passing shooting), the firing pin is not hit enough the capsule of the cartridge and there is a misfire. I see at the capsule a little sign but not enough to cause a shot. This happens even i close the shutter by pressing the button or at second or third shot but ONLY if the shot is vertically.
I have changed all the involved spare parts with new but this is still happening. The parts i have change are
1) recoil spring
2) firing pin
3) firing pin spring
4) hammer spring
I don't know what else to do. A gunsmith specialized a Beretta's told me that the problem is caused due to recoil spring, even this is changed. The gun is bought at 2009 and i changed the recoil spring for first time at 2015 during a preventive service (these misfires had began then). He says that i need to change again the recoil spring because the newer springs are more soft from the old ones and this is not allowing the shatter to close properly at the vertical shots. He suggested me to use an old recoil spring that is more powerful but he need to cut some coils before in order to seem with the newer.
Sorry, for my English, I am from Greece.
This theory is a little strange to my ears. What do you thing?

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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:53 pm 
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"Altair_Lusso", I like your name. Those are very nice old guns. I also have one, but mine is not in the best condition, and it has a Beretta barrel on it. They are rare in the USA.

As to your question, I'm not sure I can help. I have not heard of a gun with that exact problem before. If you were in the USA, I would advise you to send it to Cole Gunsmithing and let Jim Bellegarde fix it. However, I don't think you can send it there from Greece.

I will repeat what I have said many times before, I am not a gunsmith, just an amateur. Without having it here to examine, I can't do anything except guess.

I suspect it may be related to the way the locking block fits into the locking recess in the barrel extension. If you have access to another 391, you could try swapping the locking blocks and barrels (one part at a time and both together) and see if that helps. That might show that one of the parts is badly worn.

You could post your question in the "gunsmithing and restoration" forum on this site, where more people would see it. Perhaps someone else can help.

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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:15 pm 
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More comments on the same subject:

I do not think the problem is caused by weakness of the recoil spring. Apparently, when the gun is pointed upward, the bolt is moving back just enough to cause a light firing pin strike. This should not happen if the spring is strong enough to keep the bolt slide from moving back, and the standard factory spring is strong enough to do that. I suspect that wear on the locking block, or locking recess in the barrel extension is allowing the bolt to move a tiny bit. The wear could be on the face of the locking block or at the other end of the locking block, where it fits into the bolt, or in the locking surface in the barrel extension. I am not aware of another gun that has that much wear on those surfaces, but I think it is possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:10 pm 
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I don't know if it's related or not, but the thought of turning the gun upside down to remove the bolt during normal disassembly came to mind. I wonder if the action of pointing the gun skyward is causing the bolt to fall into an area it shouldn't be in.


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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:29 pm 
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Gentlemen, thank you very much for your answers.
I have an old Breda Altair Lusso, bought at 1993 with a 61cm barrel (the original "acciaio Breda" barrel) with external chokes and the gun is in a very good position and fully operational after decades thousands shoots.

Seamus O'Caiside wrote:
More comments on the same subject:

I do not think the problem is caused by weakness of the recoil spring. Apparently, when the gun is pointed upward, the bolt is moving back just enough to cause a light firing pin strike. This should not happen if the spring is strong enough to keep the bolt slide from moving back, and the standard factory spring is strong enough to do that. I suspect that wear on the locking block, or locking recess in the barrel extension is allowing the bolt to move a tiny bit. The wear could be on the face of the locking block or at the other end of the locking block, where it fits into the bolt, or in the locking surface in the barrel extension. I am not aware of another gun that has that much wear on those surfaces, but I think it is possible.


I have the same opinion. This is not a problem from weakness recoil spring.
Also, i am already very close to make a conclusion after years of shooting. The problem seems to appears only with one kind of shotshell and this is the shotshell of NSI (Nobel Sport Italy). I don't know if at US using European shotshells but in Europe NSI is a very common supplier to several cartridge manufacturers. With every other shotshell like Cheditte or B&P or Maxam etc, I don't have this problem. Many people that know, they are saying is, a common secret, that the primer at a NSI shotshell is some tenths of a millimeter dipper in the surface of a shotshell than all the rest are.
However, this problem should be solved because i don't want to reject the products of NSI.
Could you please explain me with a picture, if is possible, to understand what you are calling "locking block"?

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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:48 pm 
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Altair_Lusso wrote:
Could you please explain me with a picture, if is possible, to understand what you are calling "locking block"?

http://www.colegun.com/collections/bere ... =979677223

Sometimes called "locking bolt". It appears that most dealers in Beretta parts are sold out of them, but Cole seems to have them. That's typical, Cole often has parts nobody else can get.

The locking block locks into the locking recess in the underside of the barrel extension, to keep the bolt from opening until the gas piston pushes the operating rod back, which pushes the breech bolt slide back, which pulls the locking block out of its engagement with the barrel extension, allowing the bolt to open.

As I said above, I have never seen a case in which the locking block and/or locking recess were worn enough to allow a little movement of the bolt. However, I think it might be possible, and if that happens the bolt might move back just enough to allow a light primer strike. I'm just guessing, I don't know for sure.

If I were you, I would just use a different brand of ammo for that king of shooting.

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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:29 pm 
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Altair Lusso,

Here is my analysis of your problem. The Noble Sport primers are perhaps harder and perhaps set a little deeper in the cartridge. Therefore, your gun must deliver a little greater striking force and a little greater depth with the firing pin.

To increase the striking force, replace the hammer spring in the rear of the trigger assembly. Also, clip several coils off the firing pin return spring. This return spring retards the forward momentum of the firing pin. Shortening the spring by several coils will weaken the spring a little and cause a harder strike by the firing pin.

In order to get greater depth of penetration of the firing pin to reach a deep seated primer, you must have greater protrusion of the firing pin from the bolt face. You can achieve this by filing off a slight amount of the "shoulder" of the firing pin where it is stopped by the bolt body. This will allow the firing pin to protrude slightly farther from the bolt face.

I don't believe that the recoil spring in the buttstock has anything to do with this situation. Nor do I believe that the locking block in the bolt has anything to do with it. If the locking block were the problem, there would be no mark at all on the primer of the cartridge. In other words, the locking block would completely block the firing pin, not just slow it down.

These are my opinions. You are free to use them as you wish, but I'll accept no responsibility for any work that you or anyone else does as a result of reading and attempting to follow my advice.

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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:10 pm 
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Ulysses is very experienced, and his advice would be excellent in most other situations, but he overlooks the fact that Altair Lusso said the hammer spring, firing pin, and other parts have already been replaced. Also, I think it is important to note that Altair Lusso says the problem occurs ONLY when pass shooting with the gun pointed straight up: the gun apparently fires Nobel Sport ammo just fine in other positions.

The locking block will completely block the firing pin when it is in the down position, not locking the bolt closed, but it does not block the firing pin when it is in the up position, engaging the locking recess on the barrel extension, with the bolt fully closed and locked. I am suggesting that when this problem occurs, the locking block is locked in place but poorly fitted parts allow the bolt to move back a few (one?) thousandths of an inch, so it is not fully pressed against the base of the cartridge. The effect would be the same as excessive head space.

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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:30 pm 
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When the bolt is fully closed and locked into place, the locking block does not block the firing pin regardless how the gun is held. Since he said the pin makes a dent (dimple) in the primer, I'm assuming the locking block is not the problem.

That leaves us with the question of "What, then, is the problem?" In my opinion, the problem, as I stated above is one of two things. Either the firing pin is not hitting the primer hard enough, or else the firing pin is slightly too short for the deep seated primers.

I gave what I believe to be good advice as to how to address both of those situations. If he has already replaced the hammer spring as he said he did, then he simply needs to shorten the firing pin return spring to increase the striking force. The more he shortens it, the greater the striking force. However, if he shortens it too much, it may not reliably retract the firing pin and could cause a slam-fire which could be dangerous.

If shortening the FP return spring doesn't fix the problem, then go to solution number two which addresses the deep seated primers. If the firing pin is too short for the deep seated primers, then filing a little bit of metal off the shoulder of the firing pin will increase penetration depth of the firing pin. The potential drawback to this solution is that increased penetration may work well on this ammo, but possibly could cause primer perforation on other ammo. That is always the dilemma when you customize your gun to one particular ammo is that it may not then function well with other ammo.

I have identified two very real possible sources of the problem and stated how I would address each of those problems. Neither solution requires much money or effort although each one requires some amount of good judgement.

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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:57 am 
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Gentlemen, (Ulysses & Seamus) thank you both so much.
All these are so helpful.
Ulysses, your suggestions, especially the second one, is what i was thinking to ask from my gunsmith. I want first to compare with another hammer of 391, but i thing that mine is some tenths of a millimeter more ...(how to describe that) ... oval, more recess, more alcove, at the surface that hits the firing pin. It is very possible, after so many thousands of shoot at clays shooting and hunting, to have a infinitesimal deformation.
Thank you so much again, all these things ( locking block, f.p. spring and hummer) would be examine carefully from my gunsmith.

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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:55 am 
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Altair_Lusso wrote:
Gentlemen, (Ulysses & Seamus) thank you both so much.
All these are so helpful.
Ulysses, your suggestions, especially the second one, is what i was thinking to ask from my gunsmith. I want first to compare with another hammer of 391, but i thing that mine is some tenths of a millimeter more ...(how to describe that) ... oval, more recess, more alcove, at the surface that hits the firing pin. It is very possible, after so many thousands of shoot at clays shooting and hunting, to have a infinitesimal deformation.
Thank you so much again, all these things ( locking block, f.p. spring and hummer) would be examine carefully from my gunsmith.


Altair,

I would suggest that you give strong consideration of doing my first suggestion. If you have the old (original) firing pin return spring, then you could shorten it and try it without doing any changes to the new replacement return spring.

When you shoot straight up into the air, you also have the weight of the firing pin to overcome. Since you can't do much about the hammer striking force other than put in a stronger hammer spring, then you should consider reducing the strength of the FP return spring. You can do this easily by clipping several coils off the spring.

I would start by reducing the spring length by about 10%. If that's not enough, reduce it again in 5% increments. What have you got to lose by trying it?

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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:54 pm 
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The problem seems to be solved after cutting some coils from the f.p. spring. So easy and simple.... :-)
Many shoots today and no problem at all. Now the movement of f.p. is much easier than before and still getting back properly.
Thank you again.

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 Post subject: Re: Disassembly of Beretta 391
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:10 pm 
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Altair_Lusso wrote:
The problem seems to be solved after cutting some coils from the f.p. spring. So easy and simple.... :-)
Many shoots today and no problem at all. Now the movement of f.p. is much easier than before and still getting back properly.
Thank you again.


Yep. That's what I suggested you do at least twice in my posts above. Thanks for the reply. We always appreciate feedback to find out if our recommended fixes work. Glad to hear that it worked for you.



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