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 Post subject: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:10 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:52 am
Posts: 4
My father has always been a huge fan of Winchester firearms and has collected several Model 12s over the years. As far back as I can remember, he's been talking about finding a Model 12 28 gauge but hasn't had any success. He'll be 78 this year and my mother asked my brothers and I to help her find one for his birthday.

I know it's a long shot, but has anyone heard of one for sale? The only 28s I've seen online are very expensive (15k) or have Cutts Compensators on them. Any leads would be much appreciated.




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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 1385
Location: Maine
Poulins has three 28s in the 5/7-9 auction. None are in original condition but, best I can tell from pics/descriptions, two may have started life as 28 ga M-12s. Suspect 3rd was retrofitted with 28 ga parts.

Original 28 ga M-12s in original condition bring more as you know. I think $15k is pushing it, tho.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:57 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:35 am
Posts: 842
Location: California
What many of us have done,due to the high cost and rarity of originals,is to buy the Browning reproduction below are some examples
https://www.gunbroker.com/Pump-Action-S ... 8&g=300005

Bobcat


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:13 pm 
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http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f ... =101002495

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f ... =100974273

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f ... =100968214

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f ... =100946346

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f ... =100938093

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f ... =100893885

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f ... =100877970

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f ... =100810653

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f ... =100767402

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:37 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:52 am
Posts: 4
Thanks to everyone for the help! The 3rd link oneounceload posted at Guns International looks pretty good but are there any hints to tell if it's the real deal? We're not Model 12 experts so we'd appreciate the help when we go to make a purchase.

The last link oneounceload posted looks ok too but is quite a bit cheaper. Any ideas what the issues might be there?

Thanks again for your help!


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:34 am
Posts: 102
Location: 121Wx47N
I'm no expert but #3 seems real, ask for serial number 700,000's and chamber should be 2-7/8"
Last post I would question the rib, shouldn't it be a round post? Good luck in your quest. Notime2


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:12 am
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Location: WA/AK
Interesting that not one of the Guns International listed guns includes a picture that would definitively prove it started life as a 28-gauge.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:19 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 1385
Location: Maine
What Researcher said. We've been over this many times, and posted many good pics. Wonder if there's a way to make a 28 ga M-12 sticky? XiXiTiger ought to do a subforum search, anyway.

Re GI #3 link, add that we might be looking at aftermarket wood, and maybe a receiver/mag tube refinish. But pics are poor, we are given no SN/date to work with. The views consistently avoid areas we must see. That should bother a potential buyer......alot.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:48 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:34 pm
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Location: Nova Scotia,Canada
As has been said,very hard to tell for sure about those 28 gauge Model 12 guns.For myself, unless I got a great deal on it,I would not want a Model 12 28 gauge with a Cutts on it ,no matter if it was factory installed or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:15 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
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Location: Maine
Preferences are individual, and not impeachable. But a factory Cutts 28 is a valuable gun.

Cutts guns throw beautiful patterns - whether all original, original with after-market Cutts, or Simmons conversion with Cutts. Less collectible guns such as these make better range toys than repro M-12s.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:42 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:34 pm
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Location: Nova Scotia,Canada
As you say Sam,perferences are individual. :)

For myself, I find any Cutts to look terrible on a vintage collectors gun.You may find them beautiful and that is your right.I know that I would not pay as much for a 28 gauge Model 12 with a Cutts.A Cutts 28 gauge Model 12 is valuable,as all Winchester 28 gauge Model 12 guns are,just not as valuable to myself as one without a Cutts.

Perhaps you enjoy a Cutts on a vintage collector 28 gauge Model 12 and would pay a high price for one.I would not.Guess we will have to agree to disagree. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:03 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 1385
Location: Maine
Wasn't arguing with your preferences - quite the contrary! Like you, don't care for the appearance of a Cutts. Feel likewise about polychokes, though they are eminently practical.

Most Cutts and Polychokes are aftermarket installations, hence can usually be acquired reasonably. For a shooter, price is a consideration. I owned a couple Cutts guns, am sorry I sold them b/c they shot great for me.

The collector market respects rarity, and has little regard for an individual's preferences. I think things like Ruger .256 Hawkeyes (the handgun) and Gyrojets downright ugly. But they sure are desirable.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:52 am
Posts: 4
As you guys suggested, I did some more digging through the old threads on here. Tons of information almost to the point of being overwhelmed! Sounds like quite a few of the guns listed on guns international are Simmons or other conversions.

We would like the receiver and barrel to be original 28s, if at all possible, but I'm starting to think it may be tough to find. Researcher mentioned a missing pic that would shed some light. Is removing the stock and looking at the stamp at the back of the receiver the best way to know? Not sure I could tell the difference between the shell raceways without some serious help.

For Mr. Hoggson, which ones on the Poulins auction do you think may have started out as 28s?


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 1385
Location: Maine
XiXiTiger wrote:
We would like the receiver and barrel to be original 28s, if at all possible, but I'm starting to think it may be tough to find. Researcher mentioned a missing pic that would shed some light. Is removing the stock and looking at the stamp at the back of the receiver the best way to know? Not sure I could tell the difference between the shell raceways without some serious help.

For Mr. Hoggson, which ones on the Poulins auction do you think may have started out as 28s?


I just took another look at the three 28s. Wish I'd kept a screen shot b/c thinking the descriptions changed. #1030, 1031, 1036. Would have to look at the guns. As conversions with correct 28 ga parts installed, they may be reasonably priced.

Here is a link to a thread with pic showing the shell stops and raceways 28 ga and 16 ga: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=229159

Some years back I cut/pasted a bunch of good info contributed by Only Winchesters (now deceased) on this subforum. Also have couple good pics of a 28 ga receiver's cutoff raceway. PM with email address and I'll send it to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:20 pm 
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If you ever get a chance to view the 1955 film of Herb Parson’s exhibition shooting in Somerville, PA you will note the several of the Winchester shotguns used have either Cutts or Polychokes. In fact he jokes that for quail hunting you just dial in “quail” on the polychoke. There is no telling if any of those devices were factory installed, but they likely were. I don’t care for them either but on the guns that Parsons used they probably would not detract from the value.

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:07 pm
Posts: 1910
Location: Moore County, NC
All I can say is to consult a true Model 12 28 gauge expert with a hands on inspection, if the appropriate and required photos aren't provided. A conversion gun with Solid Rib is a $3-4k gun while an original is a $8-10k gun depending upon grade. These guns are not easy to authenticate and you more than likely could end up paying for an original when it's really a conversion gun. Buyer beware. 9.3 out of 10 are conversion guns. Winchester produced very few 28 gauge model 12s.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:40 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:06 am
Posts: 387
Location: Delmarva Eastern Shore
Quote:
Samuel_Hoggson wrote:
Preferences are individual, and not impeachable. But a factory Cutts 28 is a valuable gun.

Cutts guns throw beautiful patterns - whether all original, original with after-market Cutts, or Simmons conversion with Cutts. Less collectible guns such as these make better range toys than repro M-12s.


S.H. speaks the truth ................. many skeet titles won with model 12 Cutts guns. The only draw back they are loud but crush a target.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:58 pm 
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Posts: 387
Location: Delmarva Eastern Shore
Quote:
M12Gunboy wrote:
All I can say is to consult a true Model 12 28 gauge expert with a hands on inspection, if the appropriate and required photos aren't provided. A conversion gun with Solid Rib is a $3-4k gun while an original is a $8-10k gun depending upon grade. These guns are not easy to authenticate and you more than likely could end up paying for an original when it's really a conversion gun. Buyer beware. 9.3 out of 10 are conversion guns. Winchester produced very few 28 gauge model 12s.


Like M12GB, stated, when considering a 28 ga model 12, consult experts upon arrival over posting pictures; many fakes flooded the market in the 90's that I'm sure has changed hands over the years so buyer beware. A friend of mine bought one of those fakes it was sold for 1/2 of purchase price.

Just a thought, the nipple on the bottom of the loading area below the lifter unique to 28 ga receivers that is impossible to fake like gauge stamping on shank of receiver, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:45 pm 
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Better yet, find a well known seasoned collector and if he has the gun you want, buy an option to purchase when it becomes available. Felix Bedlan had several 28 ga 12s.

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28ga
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:48 pm 
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I have a true Model 12 28ga. that my uncle gave me in 75 to complete my set. I sent it to Simmons and had them re-blue and completely go thru the gun. They sent it out for a factory dimensions up graded stock and I shot 50 shells thru it in 75 and it has been in vault since then.
Don't have a clue what it is worth.



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