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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:15 am 
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JSun wrote:

C'mon CFDoc! Try the thing without the added weight first! Give us another opinion on the recoil reduction with the Progressive Comfort system.

If you wanted a soft shooting 8 lb. auto you should have just bought a Versamax! ;)

Keep us posted!

Thanks

Joe


I'm definitely going to shoot the gun in stock trim, as well as with all the weight. Last night I was just experimenting to see what could be done, weight wise. It probably takes less than 3 minutes to add/remove all the weight.

If looks didn't matter, I would have ended up with the Versamax...or the A400.




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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:42 pm 
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Ok, let's give this a try. I've struggled mightily with posting pictures on this site. So if the pics come out terrible, just deal with it.

I finally got out to the skeet range with the Ethos this afternoon to do some shooting. My biggest initial fear with this gun was the felt recoil due to the light weight. In stock trim, my Ethos weighs 6 lbs. 9 oz. That's only 3 ounces heavier than my Cordoba 20 gauge and right at about a pound lighter than my SuperSport.

Because the heaviest weight I can currently achieve with the Ethos is still much lighter than the useable weight of my SuperSport, I figured a better comparison would be with the 20 gauge Cordoba. As you will see, the recoil energies are much more comparable between the Cordoba and Ethos.

Now some pics. Here's both guns side by side.

Image


Image

And here's a general shot of the Ethos torn down a bit.

Image

Ok so the breakdown of the test included various types of ammo and weights for each gun. Considering the Cordoba, the breakdown was as follows:

Cordoba

Nominal weight: 6 lbs. 6 oz.
Medium weight: 7 lbs. (Achieved by 4 ounces in the stock and 6 ounce mag cap weight)
Heavy weight: 7 lbs. 6 oz. (Achieved by 8 ounces in stock and 8 ounce mag cap weight)

Lightest load: 7/8 oz. shot, 1210 fps muzzle velocity
Medium load: 7/8 oz. shot, 1300 fps muzzle velocity
Heavy load: 1 oz. shot, 1165 fps muzzle velocity

Cordoba Gun Recoil Energy Chart (How it felt when I shot it)

Nominal weight, Lightest load = 17.2 ft-lbs. (Hardly any felt recoil at all, can shoot this all day)
Nominal weight, Medium load = 19.4 ft-lbs. (Felt recoil noticeable, not painful, not comfortable)
Nominal weight, Heavy load = 20 ft-lbs. (Felt recoil very noticeable, would not shoot high volume)

Medium weight, Lightest load = 15.7 ft-lbs. (Very soft shooting load, all day shooter)
Medium weight, Medium load = 17.7 ft-lbs. (Felt recoil noticeable, not uncomfortable)
Medium weight, Heavy load = 18.1 ft-lbs. (Felt recoil noticeable, not uncomfortable)

Heavy weight, Lightest load = 14.9 ft-lbs. (Very very soft, but also starts to hiccup the action)
Heavy weight, Medium load = 16.8 ft-lbs. (Very soft, all day shooter)
Heavy weight, Heavy load = 17.2 ft-lbs. (Very soft, all day shooter)

Notes: It seems like the action needs ~15 ft-lbs. to reliably cycle the action. ~18 ft-lbs. becomes a felt recoil issue if high volume is desired.

Ethos

Nominal weight: 6 lbs. 9 oz.
Medium weight: 7 lbs. 1 oz. (Achieved by 8 ounces in the stock)
Heavy weight: 7 lbs. 10 oz. (Achieved by 8 ounces in stock and 9 ounces in magazine tube)

Lightest load: 1 oz. shot, 1180 fps muzzle velocity
Medium load: 1-1/8 oz. shot, 1145 fps muzzle velocity
Heavy load: 1 oz. shot, 1290 fps muzzle velocity


Ethos Gun Recoil Energy Chart (How it felt when I shot it)

Nominal weight, Lightest load = 19.8 ft-lbs. (A little felt recoil, but surprisingly not bad at all)
Nominal weight, Medium load = 22.7 ft-lbs. (Noticeable felt recoil, but no pain, very surprised)
Nominal weight, Heavy load = 23.1 ft-lbs. (Felt it, definitely felt it, but it is shootable. Would not want to shoot 1-1/8 1300 fps sporting loads at this weight)

Medium weight, Lightest load = 18.4 ft-lbs. (Soft shooter, no problems, high volume no worries)
Medium weight, Medium load = 21.1 ft-lbs. (Noticeable, but not painful)
Medium weight, Heavy load = 21.5 ft-lbs. (Noticeable, but not painful)

Heavy weight, Lightest load = 17 ft-lbs. (Very soft shooter, very very soft)
Heavy weight, Medium load = 19.6 ft-lbs. (Noticeable, not bad though)
Heavy weight, Heavy load = 19.9 ft-lbs. (Noticeable, not bad though)

Notes: I had zero malfunctions for all loads. I was also able to get my hands on a couple 7/8 oz. 1200 fps loads from a guy that re-loads. It had no issues with those. I'm going to continue testing to try to find the minimum required energy for reliable cycling with the Ethos. I've only gone as low as 16.3 ft-lbs.

Notes (cont.): In my opinion the progressive comfort system works! Looking at the numbers from the Cordoba, at ~18 ft-lbs. of gun recoil energy, it becomes uncomfortable to shoot high volume. For the Ethos, that number is closer to ~19.5 ft-lbs. So it's definitely an improvement.

Personal opinion: So far, I love this gun! It is a sweet shooter and I love the looks/feel. I shot 8 rounds of skeet today and managed two 24's and a lowest score of 20. I'm going to continue experimenting with the weight to try and turn this into a sporting gun.

Personal opinion (cont.): I can see the reason for the initial reports suggesting this gun "kicks like a mule." Anybody that happened to shoot 1-1/8 oz. shot at ~1300 fps out of this gun at nominal weight went for a ride.

That's all for now. More to come.


Last edited by CFDoc on Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:23 am 
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Now that is the kind of review I was waiting for. Good job CFDoc.

Just for clarification, I am assuming you calculated the recoil energy (and didn't actually measure it) based on the load and gun weight, is that correct?

It sounds to me like this gun could be the ultimate upland semi (which is what it was designed for...).

Can't wait to hear more.

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:39 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:21 pm
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I would really like to hear the difference between felt recoil on the Ethos and the SS. I have a SS and am considering an Ethos, but am afraid of the light weight. I can shoot the SS all day. I have a 8 oz cap on it. I usually shoot 200 to 300 rounds on sporting corse or trap / skeet on a good day out on a range. Also have you heard of a parallel comb rubber piece for the Ethos? I have one on my SS and have heard conflicting stories on that subject. Really love the ease cleaning the Benelli inertia guns.


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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:47 am 
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CFD,
Are you comparing a 20 ga Cordorba to a 12 ga Ethos in your excellent written review?


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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:46 pm 
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JSun wrote:
Now that is the kind of review I was waiting for. Good job CFDoc.

Just for clarification, I am assuming you calculated the recoil energy (and didn't actually measure it) based on the load and gun weight, is that correct?

It sounds to me like this gun could be the ultimate upland semi (which is what it was designed for...).

Can't wait to hear more.

Joe


Yes, the recoil energies were calculated using: http://www.omahamarian.org/trap/shotshellenergy.html

Although not perfect, it does at least give good ballpark estimates for expected felt recoil, required energy for reliable cycling, etc.

Furthermore, you are absolutely correct. In stock trim, this is an excellent upland gun. If you're only expecting to shoot ~1 box of shells, the recoil is very manageable.


Azraz wrote:
I would really like to hear the difference between felt recoil on the Ethos and the SS. I have a SS and am considering an Ethos, but am afraid of the light weight. I can shoot the SS all day. I have a 8 oz cap on it. I usually shoot 200 to 300 rounds on sporting corse or trap / skeet on a good day out on a range. Also have you heard of a parallel comb rubber piece for the Ethos? I have one on my SS and have heard conflicting stories on that subject. Really love the ease cleaning the Benelli inertia guns.


No worries, that's my next endeavor. However, since I've got ~80,000 rounds through my SuperSport, I can probably go ahead and give you a good idea of what to expect.

First of all, if you plan on keeping the Ethos at ~6.5 lbs., the last thing this gun will do is replace your SuperSport. Hence my original disagreement with Randy's assertion that the Ethos effectively "kills" off Cordobas, SuperSports, etc.

If you plan on changing the weight, my initial feeling is that; yes, the Ethos will be able to perform equally, if not better, than the SuperSport for clays. Currently, I shoot my SuperSport at ~8.5 lbs. I'm approximating the progressive comfort system to allow for about ~8% more recoil energy, while still maintaining comfortable shooting (enough for high volume). That means I need to get my Ethos around ~7.75 lbs. which I believe will be doable with a bit more experimenting.

Like I said, my next endeavor is to see what it takes (or if it's possible) to turn this Ethos field gun into a sporting gun. It just looks so nice. Even nicer than the old Teknys.

Azraz wrote:
Are you comparing a 20 ga Cordoba to a 12 ga Ethos...


Yes. I felt it was a better gun for the initial comparison (progressive comfort system wise) due to the more equal weights.

BTW - here's some pics of the ammo tested in both guns.

Image

The lone shell is the 7/8 oz. 1300 fps AA brand.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:15 pm 
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I don't know how you can compare a 12 ga to a 20 ga. How are you getting this weight into the Ethos, you say 8 oz in stock, how? You also say 9 oz in tube, how, lead filled shells? Are you pouring molted lead into stock? Did you see or hear anything about the comb insert adjustments as in the SS?
Sorry for all the question but I am very interested in getting a Ethos, but I do not want it to bea impulse buy, I need to stop this addiction to clay shooting.
Do I really need it? No, have a 11/87 with Ken Rucker stock, a Benelli Supersport, and a Fabarm XLR5 Velocity already!
The Ethos sure looks pretty in the photos though.


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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:19 pm 
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Azraz wrote:
I don't know how you can compare a 12 ga to a 20 ga.


Action type the same, weight the same, shell payload and velocity the same . . . that's a reasonable way to compare felt recoil levels. The hole diameter in the barrel has nothing to do with it.

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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:29 pm 
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Randy,
You are far more knowledgable than I on this subject, so why do folks want to get 20 ga guns rather then 12 ga for reducing recoil? People on this site are always stating they get a 20 ga to have a more enjoyable recoil reduced day.


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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:33 pm 
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CFDoc wrote:
First of all, if you plan on keeping the Ethos at ~6.5 lbs., the last thing this gun will do is replace your SuperSport. Hence my original disagreement with Randy's assertion that the Ethos effectively "kills" off Cordobas, SuperSports, etc.


As to what "kills off something" only sales numbers do that.

As for some intramural stress, I think it is there. Why would you want a Benelli Ultra Light when you can have a gun that looks better, is more comfortable to shoot, handles light loads better, and is still extremely lightweight? Along with an apparently improved bolt, and easier loading, much easier unloading?

Sure, I think it competes with the Supersport as well: a better looking gun (certainly if you like walnut) the same improved bolt, better loading / unloading, losing the worthless barrel ports . . . at a lower price point than the SS as well. If it stresses the SS 12 gauge, it will stress the SS 20 gauge even more.

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Last edited by RandyWakeman on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:40 pm 
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Azraz wrote:
so why do folks want to get 20 ga guns rather then 12 ga for reducing recoil? People on this site are always stating they get a 20 ga to have a more enjoyable recoil reduced day.


Well, not everyone feels that way, there are other appealing things about a 20 gauge. The standard 20 gauge (formerly "low brass") is 7/8 oz. 1200 fps. The standard 12 gauge light load historically is the "3 dram eq." 1-1/8 oz. load, or about 1200 fps. You can get a 28 gauge to kick as well, but the 3/4 oz. 1200 fps 28 gauge load is the classic shell.

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Last edited by RandyWakeman on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:42 pm 
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Randy, when are you going to get an Ethos? I would like to hear your impressions of the recoil reducer as compared to a SS. Have you heard of a rubber insert raised comb for the Ethos?


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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:45 pm 
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Azraz wrote:
I don't know how you can compare a 12 ga to a 20 ga.


Like Randy said, Mr. Newton doesn't care what diameter the hole is on the barrel. I was more or less trying to compare the comfortech system (which, btw, the exact same comfortech pad is used for both 20 and 12 gauges) to the new progressive system. I'm convinced the progressive system is an improvement.

Azraz wrote:
How are you getting this weight into the Ethos, you say 8 oz in stock, how?


Being a bass fisherman, I have access to a lot of lead and tungsten sinkers. Combined with an old sock that lost his pair, it's easy to stuff 8 ounces in the "void" in the stock and then reinstall the progressive recoil system.

Azraz wrote:
You also say 9 oz in tube, how, lead filled shells?


Midway sells these: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/887189 ... uctFinding

They've gone up in price though. I paid $25 for mine, shipped, several years ago.


Last edited by CFDoc on Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:57 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:

As to what "kills off something" only sales numbers do that.


Agreed. It'll be interesting to see the numbers over the next several years.

RandyWakeman wrote:
As for some intra-mural stress, I think it there. Why would you want a Benelli Ultra Light..


Also agreed. There's no reason for the BUL except price. And that's not even a clear winner either.

RandyWakeman wrote:
when you can have a gun that looks better, is more comfortable to shoot,


Yes and yes.

RandyWakeman wrote:
handles light loads better,


Initial feelings, yes.

RandyWakeman wrote:
and is still extremely lightweight?


Yes/

RandyWakeman wrote:
Along with an apparently improved bolt, and easier loading, much easier unloading?


Bolt improvement, yes. It will not stay out of battery. I tried.

Loading/unloading, depends. If you're a "thumb-tip loading" kind of guy. Then yes, this gun will be a vast improvement in the loading department. If your a "fat-part-of-thumb masher" kind of guy, like me, there's really no discernable difference in the loading department. Unloading was the same.

RandyWakeman wrote:
Sure, I think it competes with the Supersport as well: a better looking gun (certainly if you like walnut) the same improved bolt, better loading / unloading, losing the worthless barrel ports . . . at a lower price point than the SS as well. If it stresses the SS 12 gauge, it will stress the SS 20 gauge even more.


It may stress the SuperSport in the end. But for me, at it's nominal weight, the SuperSport is the better option for high volume clays. However, I'm working on changing that...


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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:44 pm 
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I held one at the store Tuesday. I would like the optional higher rib, I think. My Super Vinci seems to come up a little more naturally for me. Hard to tell exactly in a store, and not side by side shooting. It *is* light. This should take the pheasant market by storm, if there's such a thing. There isn't a wild pheasant within 500 miles of here.

Not sure I like the finish on the wood, but I know nothing about wood, being in the polymer generation. There isn't a piece of lumber in my gun safe today, shotgun, rifle or pistol (although the O/U I have on order will change that... barely)


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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:54 pm 
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Azraz wrote:
have a 11/87 with Ken Rucker stock, a Benelli Supersport, and a Fabarm XLR5 Velocity already!


Azraz, how do you personally rate those three in the recoil department?

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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:40 pm 
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Randy,
Although I have not shot the 11/87 in some time since getting the other two, on memory---11/87 with KR stock, I'd say very light, the bump buster does the job very well. I almost always use 1 1/8 #8 Rem gun clubs. The Supersport is also a light shooter since I have added an extra 8 oz Brielly mag cap onto it. The Velocity is in my opinion has the lightest recoil of all. I have just one of the supplied 1 1/2 oz mag cap weights on it.
So in summery, lightest- XLR5 Velocity, next would be the 11/87 with KRBB and heaviest would be the Supersport. Even if I say the SS is heaviest, I still use it for my sporting clay days with 200-250 shots with no pain. I use the Velocity for trap days, usually 150-200 shots, again I can shot that all day with out any pain. The 11/87 was my first shotgun and as stated I don't use it very often anymore, might sell it and get the Ethos if reports are that the progressive recoil reducer works as advertised.


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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:56 pm 
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Image

Above, a 7-1/4 lb. 20 gauge with a standard target load.


Image

Above, a 7 lb. 12 gauge with a standard 3 dram equivalent target load. That's where the idea of "shoots like a 20 gauge" comes from.

You might think a 7-1/4 lb. 20 gauge is heavy, but compared to an 8 lb. + XLR5, steel Browning B-80 12 gauge, or a Remington Versa-Max it sure isn't. The XLR5, Versa Max, and steel B-80 12 gauges are the three softest-shooting 12 gauges I have as of right this second. The B-80 doesn't even have what I'd call a recoil pad and . . . it doesn't need it. None of them are fun-to-carry pheasant guns, although that B-80 has been used for just that.

The softest-shooting 20 gauge around isn't even a model I own anymore: but my 85 years young father does. It is an early Browning Gold 20 gauge, over 7 lbs., heavier than my A-5 Mag 20s. With a 7/8 oz. load, there is nothing to feel. You hear a click, a clay pigeon explodes. Its lack of felt recoil is eerie.

Somebody decided that 20 gauges have to be light, the same guy that decided 16 gauges just have to be light, and 28 gauges have to be super-extra-ultra-light. That's "progress." :lol: Now, it seems like we are all worried about recoil again.

It all depends what you are looking for and how it is presented. Want a shotgun that weighs less than 6-1/2 lbs., that you can shoot all day, that will not only smash clays but also drop doves, pigeons, pheasants, turkey? Want that same gun to be reliable with 7/8 oz. loads? Want all this, but just don't want a gas gun?

Well, that describes the 6 lbs. 6 oz. Cordoba 20 gauge, doesn't it? :shock: Sometimes, there's no place like home.



Violins and motorcycles could be used to describe a Cordoba 20 gauge just as well as the Ethos, don't you think?

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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:49 pm 
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Azraz wrote:
Randy, when are you going to get an Ethos? I would like to hear your impressions of the recoil reducer as compared to a SS. Have you heard of a rubber insert raised comb for the Ethos?


I've been advised "in process" and "as soon as possible." I have no idea what that means. As far as replacement comb availability, that's all up to Benelli. I have no intention of trying to compare the Ethos to a SuperSport, only because a SS is not one of my standard test guns. A Vinci is, however.

In the end, everyone is going to have to just shoot one and draw their own conclusions. Stock fit can't reasonably be taken totally out of the equation, either. Where the Ethos shines is comparing it to a shotgun of the same weight and action type. For example, compared to the Browning A5 Hunter . . . I can tell you already, no contest. The Ethos is a far better shotgun in just about every way a shotgun can be better.

Flipside, if you already own a SuperSport as in your case, have no issues with recoil, reliability, etc., then it would be more of buying a new gun to fix what isn't broken.

Quote:
The 11/87 was my first shotgun and as stated I don't use it very often anymore, might sell it and get the Ethos if reports are that the progressive recoil reducer works as advertised.


Benelli is in pretty good shape on this one, for they don't advertise it to do anything specific. http://www.benelliusa.com/progressive-comfort

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 Post subject: Re: OK, who is buying an Ethos?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:11 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Flipside, if you already own a SuperSport as in your case, have no issues with recoil, reliability, etc., then it would be more of buying a new gun to fix what isn't broken.


Hear, hear.

If the Ethos didn't just look so damn good, I'd never even considered it.

The scary question I don't want to ask myself is what do I do with my SuperSport if I can get this Ethos to perform on the same level (or maybe better :shock: ) for sporting clays?!?!

It's done nothing wrong its entire life. It seems cruel to gunsafe it. I don't wanna think about it.




Last edited by CFDoc on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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