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 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge self defense ammo
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:39 pm 
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I too have a 20 GA for the wife. It is certainly not the best shotgun round but it is the best that she can handle.



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 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge self defense ammo
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 2636
Location: Newton Kansas
Ezra Smack wrote:
As I understand it, buckshot size have become "nominal" lately. Sort of like the way a 2 x 4 piece of lumber is not really 2" by 4". Ammunition manufacturers and lumber companies should be free to make their products in any size that they see fit, but damn it, an inch is an inch and if you call anything less "an inch" it is a form of fraud.

In my state there is actually a government agency that travels around calibrating gas pumps to make sure that when they sell you a gallon of gas it is really a gallon and weighing meat in grocery stores to insure that if you buy a pound of hamburger it really weighs a pound. I don't know why lumber and buckshot should be exempt from the moral obligation of honest weights and measures.

Rant over.

2x4's really ARE 2" x 4" Ezra,, that is the dimensions they are cut to. Same with all "dimensional lumber", 4x4, 4x6, 2x12, etc.

Problem is (and few people realize/know this) they are cut WET (freshly-cut).

When they are kiln-dried, they shrink to what you and I get at the lumberyard. 1 3/4 x 3 3/4.

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 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge self defense ammo
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:48 pm 
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BTW. the "moral obligation" to "correct" measures Ezra.........................

Really,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, just exactly how far does the "accuracy" have to go to be suitably "moral".

EVERYTHING manufactured in the entire world, has an allowed tollerance, because at some point it becomes, not just 'uneconomical', but it becomes flatly impossible to make something exact down to the .0000000000...............................

That certified gallon of gasoline isn't 1.000000 gallons.
It is 1.0 +- something. How much is that 'something"?
According to:
http://www.schuylercounty.us/DocumentCenter/View/514
That tolerance is 6 cubic inches of volume over a 5-gallon test-draw.
That's a half-ounce per gallon. Little difference to you or I, but a trucker might be ripped off an entire half-gallon he paid for
Since a gallon of gasoline apparently occupies 231 cubiic inches, that is 1155 cubic inches, +- 6 CI
That is a +- 0.5% tolerance, so for your "1-gallon" of gasoline, you might get only 99.5% of a gallon,,, you might get 100.5% of a gallon.

That certified food scale at the grocery store,, is at some decimal point "inexact".
Same with those 'certified" vehicle scales on the highway and outside grain elevators.
They are allowed to be this way, because making them "exact" requires impossible precision.

People all over in THIS board,,,, every time someone wants to snivel or whine over shot size, they run into the ignored fact that the firearms industry (just as with every other manufacturing industry) says every single shot size has a Plus/Minus manufacturing tolerance.

You buy 2 identical Learjets from my employer, same specifications, same model, same options.
They won't weigh identically, they won't have identical wingspans, they won't be exactly the same length. They WILL be acceptable to both us and the governing agencies (FAA/EASA) for their type certification.
Every single component (of millions) has a +- size and fit tolerance. A lot of planes come out pretty close to 'nominal" due to Plusses crossing out with Minuses, but you have a very real chance of getting a Tolerance Stack bird, one which stacked minuses and is short/narrow, or one that stacked Plusses and is long/wide.

You want to see the end of affordable projectiles, demand that bird and buckshots be made like ball bearings, +-.0001" instead of +-.005, .010, .015"
want to see an end to affordable "promotional" ammunition,,,,,,,,,,,,, fine, demand shot charge weights be +- 1 single pellet (whatever that pellet weighs). Not +-3, 5, 7, 10%.
Rifle bullets.............. precision manufacture?
Bullets that weigh 100 grains or less, can be off by weight +-2%. That's a 98gr or 102gr "100gr" bullet.
Bullets over 100 grains............ +- 1.5%, so on a 200gr 30'06 bullet, that's +-3 full grains.
For non-lead-cored bullets,,,, weight tolerance is allowed to balloon to a whopping 3%.

Handgun bullets,,,, same tolerances at the same 100gr split,,, and the same non-lead-construction tolerance.

I have some milsurplus ammunition downstairs whose powder charge tolerance had to have been around +-7% as, with 47gr nominal charges, I have some 3 full grains light and heavy, a 6-grain span.

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 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge self defense ammo
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:43 pm 
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OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
2x4's really ARE 2" x 4" Ezra,, that is the dimensions they are cut to. Same with all "dimensional lumber", 4x4, 4x6, 2x12, etc.

Problem is (and few people realize/know this) they are cut WET (freshly-cut).

When they are kiln-dried, they shrink to what you and I get at the lumberyard. 1 3/4 x 3 3/4.


What you are saying used to be true in the 1940's. the A modern 2x4 is only 1 1/2 x 3 1/2". Shrinkage and planning does reduce their size somewhat but the industry standard used to be bigger. All you have to do is look at the rafters in the attic of an older house to prove my point. The same thing happened with other building materials such as sheetrock, and pains of glass that are not subject to shrinkage at all. In fact, if you look at modern plywood it is measured in funky fractions like 7/16 rather than 1/2 inch. This is because there was a lawsuit over plywood manufacturers using nominal deminsions rather than the true thickness.

What does any of this have to do with combat shotguns?

Only that modern buckshot may be a bit short of what the manufacturer claims it is especially in "flight controlled" wads where the shot size has been reduced to make room for the wad. My contention is that if they load #2 buck that they should have to call it #2 buck or whatever and not market it #1 which it is not.

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 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge self defense ammo
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:43 pm 
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OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
2x4's really ARE 2" x 4" Ezra,, that is the dimensions they are cut to. Same with all "dimensional lumber", 4x4, 4x6, 2x12, etc.

Problem is (and few people realize/know this) they are cut WET (freshly-cut).

When they are kiln-dried, they shrink to what you and I get at the lumberyard. 1 3/4 x 3 3/4.


What you are saying used to be true in the 1940's. the A modern 2x4 is only 1 1/2 x 3 1/2". Shrinkage and planning does reduce their size somewhat but the industry standard used to be bigger. All you have to do is look at the rafters in the attic of an older house to prove my point. The same thing happened with other building materials such as sheetrock, and pains of glass that are not subject to shrinkage at all. In fact, if you look at modern plywood it is measured in funky fractions like 7/16 rather than 1/2 inch. This is because there was a lawsuit over plywood manufacturers using nominal deminsions rather than the true thickness.

What does any of this have to do with combat shotguns?

Only that modern buckshot may be a bit short of what the manufacturer claims it is especially in "flight controlled" wads where the shot size has been reduced to make room for the wad. My contention is that if they load #2 buck that they should have to call it #2 buck or whatever and not market it #1 which it is not.

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 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge self defense ammo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:21 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:50 am
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Location: Home of The King
Ezra Smack wrote:
...What does any of this have to do with combat shotguns?
Only that modern buckshot may be a bit short of what the manufacturer claims it is especially in "flight controlled" wads where the shot size has been reduced to make room for the wad.
Yes, agreed. But it's a FC cup, if we're nit-pickin' :wink:
Quote:
My contention is that if they load #2 buck that they should have to call it #2 buck or whatever and not market it #1 which it is not.
Rio's not loading #2 as #1. Again, you don't have limitless choices in SD 20-ga. Let's move on.
I hate that those extortionists at PhotoFucket have my only pic of patterning Rio C20 #1-buck in a 18.5" 870; easily 15-17 yards staying in a B27 target torso. It didn't represent nominally hurt!



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