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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:10 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:12 pm
Posts: 267
third sentence, first post.

bone, hard tissue etc... will effect the round.

i can show you a nice pic of a slug that was fired into a yearing cow that didn't even make it through the ribs, just rode then like a train on a track in one side and out the other.



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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:36 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:39 pm
Posts: 137
First of all,

Great thread, very informative and I really appreciate you taking the time to do the research and post the results. I was wondering if you had any information on this shotshell: http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/h ... efense.pdf

I have seen these starting to pop up and have not been able to find any penetration information on them. I have seen their improvements in distance first hand but that is about it.

Thanks in advance!

Jason


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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:37 pm
Posts: 54
http://www.aguilaammo.com/minishells.htm

Forget the mini part... Why is it that with all the computer tech we have for designing patterns of shot in the case no one makes ammo like this... Its the best of both worlds. You have 4 1B pellets to penetrate deep and you have 7 4B to get a better spread with more pellets etc etc... Why can't someone make a 3" mag round that is like 4-6 00-buck pellets with the rest of the space filled in with #4. Super high velocity to. That way no matter what you shoot no matter how close or far it/they are just SCREWED.

That way you can just have 100 rounds of that one ammo and a few slugs and you are ready for anything that comes along. Be it a bear mugger home invader whatever. You just shoot it 1-2 times with your default mixed pellet round its its freaking dead. Next...

Disclaimer... I don't know what combo would be best this is just an example. So don't rant at me saying X way would be better. All I'm saying is there is an OBVIOUS advantage to mixed pellet size loads I just don't understand why no one makes them. Is there some rule somewhere that says all shotgun ammo must have the same size pellets?

PS - great post. some really good info on shot patterns and pentrations etc.


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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:33 am 
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Quote:
Why can't someone make a 3" mag round that is like 4-6 00-buck pellets with the rest of the space filled in with #4.


Having small pellets mixed in to enlarge the pattern imo defeats the purpose. You have limited space in the shell so why try to put in pellets that aren't recommended due to lack of penetration ?

If I'm going to shoot 3" either the 10 pellet 000 buck or 15 pellet 00 buck should suffice. If I missed, then I need to shoot again. If I hit, at least I'm pretty sure it will be effective.


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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:01 am 
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gak wrote:
Quote:
Why can't someone make a 3" mag round that is like 4-6 00-buck pellets with the rest of the space filled in with #4.


Having small pellets mixed in to enlarge the pattern imo defeats the purpose. You have limited space in the shell so why try to put in pellets that aren't recommended due to lack of penetration ?


Normally I would think the idea would be to put a standard load of pellets in the shell and then fill the interstices with whatever seems most appropriate.


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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:25 pm 
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Grizzlywinmag wrote:
gak wrote:
Quote:
Why can't someone make a 3" mag round that is like 4-6 00-buck pellets with the rest of the space filled in with #4.


Having small pellets mixed in to enlarge the pattern imo defeats the purpose. You have limited space in the shell so why try to put in pellets that aren't recommended due to lack of penetration ?


Normally I would think the idea would be to put a standard load of pellets in the shell and then fill the interstices with whatever seems most appropriate.


Corn starch? It is used in black powder loads... why not shot loads?

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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:41 am 
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Grizzlywinmag wrote:
Normally I would think the idea would be to put a standard load of pellets in the shell and then fill the interstices with whatever seems most appropriate.


Wouldn't that change the load weight, forcing you to lower velocity/less penetration of your main pellet charge AND the secondary pellets ?

For me, if 15 pellet 00 buck or 10 pellet 000 isn't enough I brought the wrong gun, or I missed.


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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:15 pm 
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gak wrote:
Grizzlywinmag wrote:
Normally I would think the idea would be to put a standard load of pellets in the shell and then fill the interstices with whatever seems most appropriate.


Wouldn't that change the load weight, forcing you to lower velocity/less penetration of your main pellet charge AND the secondary pellets ?


Yep, probably a bit at least. Depends on how much the additional pellets would weigh. Would you be able to fit in more than 20 or so pellets of #6 birdshot on a full shell of 00 buck?

I was just speaking to the idea that you probably wouldn't remove actual full size pellets to make room for smaller pellets.


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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:35 am
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Masterblaster1 wrote:
I'm a bit confused about ordinance gelatin. Is it supposed to mimic human tissue or is it closer to animal tissue? I was suprised the #4 copper buck averaged 15.5" penetration and the #1 only bettered it by 1 inch. I'm suprised because a 1 buck pellet weighs in at 40 grains and #4 at somewhere around 20.5 if i remember correctly. Any thoughts?


Todays #1 buckshot measures .285 (5 pellet average of Federal and Winchester shot) this reduces the weight and penetration substantially.


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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:42 pm 
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It would be interesting to see the depth and extent of gelatin block damage the true heavyweights of factory slug and buckshot loads would produce.

A hard cast, heat treated .73 caliber, 730 grain slug at 1250 fps would have to have several more gelatin blocks to stop it. Heavy .60 caliber, 315 grain hard cast buckshot at 1250 fps would likely outpenetrate any foster type slug.

While I have not had the opportunity to test this ammunition against gelatin blocks I have fired it into stacks of soaked newspaper. This medium stops 00 buck inside of 5 inches.

The testing can be viewed at:
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=39309


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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:33 am 
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damn! I've allways tough that birdshot at home defense range was more than enough to stop a bad guy! :shock:


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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:58 pm 
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Yea every time a ballistics post is put up theres at least 1 person who realized the inefficiency of birdshot. I have my HD buddy loaded with 5 shells of 00 in the tube and 3 on the buttsleve along with 2 slugs just for who-the-hell-knows-what.

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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:51 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:54 pm
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Location: Ohio
Hello All,
New to the forum and have a lot to learn from those with training/ experience.

I live in a condo with cement block walls between the adjacent condos but I'm still concerned about over penetration. I bought 50 rds of the Federal Tactical 00 buck. I'm somewhat concerned about over penetration still. It seems that #4 buck is the least recommended for HD. Is the potential for collateral damage between #00 and #4 that much different?

In a real situation ( home defense) would it be wise or legal to used #4 shot or larger (not buck) as your first round to , and followed by 00 or 4 buck if needed or should the first shot always be the most lethal possible? I don't know if I'd be so hyped by the moment to follow up?

This is one reason I want to take a tactical shotgun course this summer. I feel terribly inept at this time...

What about the "poly shock" ammo?

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,1 ... e,,00.html


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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:08 pm 
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ASL-Man wrote:
What about the "poly shock" ammo?


ASL,

Max penetration with that ammo seems to be about 7" in gelatin. Unfortunately, the FBI minimum standard to reach vital organs is 12" in gelatin, leaving "PolyShock" with inadequate penetration for defensive use.

If you wish to reduce the chance of hurting innocents with pass through/misses, the minimum round you should be looking at in 12G would be a 2&3/4" #1 Buck.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm


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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:01 pm 
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Location: West Florida Panhandle
I don't think gelatin is an accurate measure of penetration in humans. I do feel it is intended to give a consistent medium free of any variables that would not allow accurate comparisons.
I look as much for the hyrda shock as anything.
Brent


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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:21 am
Posts: 113
Location: Kansas
soonerpgh wrote:

Corn starch? It is used in black powder loads... why not shot loads?


You mean corn MEAL. Corn starch is finer than talc.


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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:54 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:31 am
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Location: Colorado
So, I did my own tests yesterday, sorry but no pics. I brought 2 regular hardcover books, each 300 pages. I also brought 2 telephone books, 1 steel plate 1/4" thick and a cinder block.

All ammo was Winchester, 7 1/2 bird, 00 buck, and slug, all 2 3/4".

All shots were taken at 25 feet.

The birdshot went half way through the books, did not even crack the cinder block, made no mark on the steel, and went 1/4" into the phone book.

The buck went through everything, but had a hard time penetrating the steel (left smaller hols for the exits).

The slug made mincemeat out of all the targets.

Birdshot: Unless your target is a bird or a paper target, do not shoot at him with this.

Buckshot: Unless your target is far away or covered in body armor, this is a great all-purpose HD round.

Slug: This will penetrate most things it is shot at, but will deform quickly after contact with target.

I know this has all been said, but I just wanted to see for myself what they could and couldnt do.


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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:16 am 
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As a young man, I had the oportunity to be around old timmers from the swamps of Louisiana.
They thought a 30-30 was a high powered rifle and practicaly slept with their shotguns. They had a lot of knowledge of what loads to shoot in a shotgun.

1- Best all round kill everything you find in the woods load was 3" BB's (Lead). They could kill ducks, deer, hogs etc.

2- Best buckshot load was what ever patterned best at 40 yds. 0 buck was popular before baby magnums because it gave 12 .32 balls VS 9 .33 balls for the 00 loading. #1 with 16 was loved if it patterned well. Pattern was the key.

Double guns where the gun of choice since you could have slug, buckshot, fineshot combos in the gun.

For killing people, buckshot of atleast #1 size was prefered.
One of the men told a story, that as a young man he had shot some enemies with #6 shot while they were fishing in a boat until they dived into the lake. His Dad beat him for using 6 shot instead of #1 buck. If you are to shoot a man use buckshot! never fineshot was the message delivered with each blow.

Their accumulated shotgun wisdom was that for interpersonal dispute settlement, a tight pattern of atleast #1 buck settled the issue quickly.


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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:33 am 
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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:55 pm 
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Good post, I've read this report before.
This may sound odd to you guys, but I've always kept the #6 birdshot for home defense.
Buckshot won't even begin to open up in most homes, due to short hallways. Also, overpenetration should be a concern with slugs and buckshot(neighbors and family members). Shot and slugs will go through a house or two before stopping. Remember, you're not hunting water buffalo here(and your visibility will probably be limited due to darkness)
#6 causes alot of soft tissue damage with a nasty wound track.
Still not convinced, take your shotgun outside, hang up a target(or a jug of water) load up a shell of #6 and fire.
Complete devastation at close range. It gets even worse if your shotgun chambers a magnum load :shock:
I have nothing against buckshot, but using it in your home...almost seems the same as using a pistol since it won't have the chance to expand. And since the home intruder is probably going to be closer than 35-50 yards, my odds of hitting him will be better




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