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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on pag
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:49 am 
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rjsixgun wrote:
Not to open a can of worms, but I got a bird shot question.
Most HD shotguns are useing a Cylender bore. What if you use your bird shot 6's or 7's in a modified choke? this will keep the patter tighter, being as your target will be no futher than say 25 ft., what would be the stoping power then?

No. It is still small shot; keeping them closer together does not make them penetrate further.
Quote:
I have noticed that I will blow a hole the size of my fist threw 3/4 in plywood at 25 paces at my range with 6&7's.
Plywood is much harder than tissue and harder than anytype of clothing.

That's great if you need a defensive load to handle plywood badguys. There is a reason ballistic gel is used as opposed to plywood for determining terminal ballistics. Plywood at best is good for determining how a shotgun will pattern. That's it.
Quote:
Myself I use 00 buck, as my 1st shot, backed up by more 00 buck. But I will admit I use 6&7's to pratice with at the range. Hell its cheaper!!!!

And that's what birdshot is good for. Get the manipulations down with birdshot, then use buck for familiarization with what the real deal is like.



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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 4
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:17 pm 
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Ok I agree with all that, a flock of birds or a stack of plywood will never break into a house, and 00 buck is a known "MAN STOPPER"

But my question is more along the lines of "KNOCK-DOWN" power. not stopping power. If that makes any sence.
I know 1-3 inch is not alot of penetration. But at 25ft 30 projectiles hitting at the same time, what is the FT.LBS of force? Has anyone ever done a test like that.

I'm not an advocate of bird shot for HD in anyway, just wondering what the differance in Foot pounds would be between the 2 loads.

Everyone always talks about penetration, well 1 inch into a body is still one inch. A box cutter only has a 1inch blade but everyone carries one. And its a great deturant if its your belly getting the 1 inch in it. I'm sure it would stop me, what about you?

Kinda like throwing a Baseball Vs. a Tinfoil ball at someone, its the Foot Pounds and the PSI that will hurt, not the speed.

So basically that would be my question, on the recieving end of Buck VS. Birdshot what are the Foot pounds and PSI?? has that test ever been done?


and again:
I'm not an advocate of bird shot for HD in anyway, just wondering what the differance in Foot pounds would be between the 2 loads.

So dont shoot me with any load. LOL!


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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on pag
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:40 pm 
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rjsixgun wrote:
But my question is more along the lines of "KNOCK-DOWN" power. not stopping power. If that makes any sence.

KNOCK-DOWN power. Stop now. All caps doesn't make it any less a myth.
Quote:
I know 1-3 inch is not alot of penetration.

Well, since you need to penetrate deeper than that to get to either of quick fight stoppers, why is this even a consideration?
Quote:
But at 25ft 30 projectiles hitting at the same time, what is the FT.LBS of force? Has anyone ever done a test like that.

You are incorrect in your assumption. It is still the same force, because each pellet has its own momentum, its own velocity, its own path. They do not travel as a single mass, they do not pool their momentum. Each is traveling on its own path. Each is going to lose energy individually.
Quote:
I'm not an advocate of bird shot for HD in anyway, just wondering what the differance in Foot pounds would be between the 2 loads.

None, for the reason that they are both a small cloud of independent projos. One is just more tightly collected than the other.
Quote:
Everyone always talks about penetration, well 1 inch into a body is still one inch. A box cutter only has a 1inch blade but everyone carries one. And its a great deturant if its your belly getting the 1 inch in it.

Dear God. Totally different wounding mechanisms, and it is not as simple as you are making it. Cutting is much more efficient in terms of penetration. Projos do damage by crushing, which in turn disrupts tissue. It is less efficient in terms of moving through tissue, but it disrupts a greater area.
Quote:
I'm sure it would stop me, what about you?

Would you break into a house? Are you mentally impaired? Are you psychotic? Do you habitually use drugs and/or alcohol and operate in an impaired state? Do you have a lengthy criminal record? Do you frequently assault others and attempt to exercise control over property that does not belong to you? When was the last aggravated sexual assault that you committed? Do you set fires? How many burglaries have you committed?
Do you see why taking what deters you does not apply to others?
Quote:
Kinda like throwing a Baseball Vs. a Tinfoil ball at someone, its the Foot Pounds and the PSI that will hurt, not the speed.

Really? Assume 250fps on the baseball. Now assume 3200fps on the tinfoil ball. Get it? The equation is E=MV2. Notice that velocity is much more of a determining factor on energy than mass. If you increase each by a factor of 1, the velocity has a greater impact than mass.
Quote:
So basically that would be my question, on the recieving end of Buck VS. Birdshot what are the Foot pounds and PSI?? has that test ever been done?

The foot pounds would be greater for the buckshot assuming the same speed between them. You keep wanting to pool the projos into one collective mass acting in a unitary fashion it seems.
Get over the PSI thing.
Quote:
and again:
I'm not an advocate of bird shot for HD in anyway, just wondering what the differance in Foot pounds would be between the 2 loads.

So dont shoot me with any load. LOL!

Again, the foot pounds/PSI/whatever isn't handled as a single mass, because it isn't.

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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 4
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:45 pm 
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I agree with some but not all the things you say;

Velocity and Foot Pounds however I disagree, I sight the .45 ACP VS 9mm arguement for that. .45 ACP moves slower and has better stopping power, while the 9 has more velosity and better penitration.

Also if you know of the CZ Scorpion, its only a 32 ACP but its a known man stopper because it hits its targets with 3 bullets at the same time, and the 32 is not known for penitration.

I dont think this topic will ever be set in stone, much like the 9mm VS 45, we'll always have 00 buck VS Birdshot.

I think this is where the big debate has originaly started. One would have to know the kinetic force that both loads will hit at in a controled enviorment. Same powder, same shot wieght, same target at the same distance.

Sounds like a job for "MYTH BUSTERS!" all caps there! LOL!

I'll keep my 00 buck, but I would like to see the results.


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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:57 pm 
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this is a great topic very detailed with great pictures. Thanks for posting this, am looking forward to the updates


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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 4
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:01 pm 
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I have been thinking of keeping one of my shotguns (.12 ga 26" barrel) loaded with buckshot (My neighbor thinks # 4 Buck would be best) I already have a .40 cal pistol.. But a shotgun is a very good home defense night time weapon I would think. Looks like he might be on to something given this test.


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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 4
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:55 am 
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I saw on TV (whatever show comes on after Tactical Impact)... That they tested drywall penetration with birdshot, double00Buck, and a slug.

Birdshot - massive hole through first wall, dropped before second wall at 10' away.

Buckshot - penetrated through first and second wall cleanly, some pellets made it through third (exterior) wall.

Slug - well, duh... it went clean through all 3.

Putting the one shot one kill idea aside... I am perfectly comfortable with keeping my first rounds as birdshot, and possibly adding a side saddle with buckshot for distance if necessary.


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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on pag
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:57 am 
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rjsixgun wrote:
Velocity and Foot Pounds however I disagree, I sight the .45 ACP VS 9mm arguement for that. .45 ACP moves slower and has better stopping power, while the 9 has more velosity and better penitration.


Neither will hit with any more force than the recoil of the gun. See Newton's Third Law for corroboration.

Quote:
Also if you know of the CZ Scorpion, its only a 32 ACP but its a known man stopper because it hits its targets with 3 bullets at the same time, and the 32 is not known for penitration.


The Skorpion known for being a "manstopper"? Quit playing Golden Eye and read the research posted by doctors and ballisticians in this and other threads.

Sorry if that comes across as harsh, but most of us deal in reality here, and the above anecdote of yours is far from meeting that descriptor.

Quote:
I dont think this topic will ever be set in stone, much like the 9mm VS 45, we'll always have 00 buck VS Birdshot.


All but the buckshot are pretty poor fight stoppers. The buckshot gets an edge due to volume only.

Quote:
I think this is where the big debate has originaly started. One would have to know the kinetic force that both loads will hit at in a controled enviorment. Same powder, same shot wieght, same target at the same distance.

Sounds like a job for "MYTH BUSTERS!" all caps there! LOL!


Newton's

Third

Law


Google it if you have to, but please do not post more until you have a thorough understanding of it.

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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:42 am 
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000buck wrote:
this info in an excerpt taken from chuckhawks:
Two things to keep in mind about birdshot. The first is that birdshot is as lethal as buckshot at close range. Don't believe for a second that you can just wound someone with birdshot and he'll go on to live another day. If you aren't justified in killing a man, you aren't justified in wounding him, either. Never "shoot to wound." I once again direct you to read Ayoob's 'In the Gravest Extreme' and learn the truth.

This is an excerpt from another gov't wound ballistics study:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunke ... istics.htm

The second thing is that birdshot makes a lot of sense for home defense. I keep my home-defense 12 gauge loaded with two #4 birdshot rounds followed by 00 buck. Birdshot is much less likely to penetrate thin interior walls and kill innocent people on the other side, and has lower recoil than buckshot for faster follow-up shots (I live in a thin-walled apartment house, however - if I lived in a solid house with a lot of land around, I would definitely choose buckshot instead). The stopping power of birdshot should not be under-estimated: at ranges out to thirty feet or so, birdshot is virtually a solid column of lead. Choose any #4 or BB high brass lead hunting load. I like the Federal "Classic Lead Hi-Brass" #4 birdshot (HI26-4) and Winchester "Super-X" #4 high brass birdshot (X12-4), but there is little difference between the various choices. Buy whichever you please. If you're a bird hunter, use your favorite hunting shells as long as they are #6 or larger.

here is the complete link:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm



The notion of "birdshot" is remarkably stupid and dangerous information-- dangerous if anyone believes that #6 shot is to be relied upon. It is reckless and has been disproved as a reasonable HD solution.

I'm sorry, I don't know "anonymous"-- this info is irresponsible.


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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 4
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:39 am 
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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 4
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:53 pm 
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for those who don't know Newton's Third Law.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object. The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object. Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs.

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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on pag
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:29 pm 
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Banshee wrote:
for those who don't know Newton's Third Law.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object. The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object. Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs.


IOW, the force delivered to the target will always be equal to (and never more) than the force delivered to the shooter's shoulder.

"Kinetic Energy" and "Knockdown Power" are mythical ballistic properties that have a place only in an argument made from ignorance.






Edit in red (see following pots for why).

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Last edited by FMD on Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 4
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:00 am 
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Okay, I was doing a google search for something else entirely, but I came across this little gem, and basically had to register just to say something.

Quote:
IOW, the "kinetic energy" delivered to the target will always be equal to (and never more) than the energy delivered to the shooter's shoulder.


No. Just plain no. Absolutely, totally wrong. Your high school physics teacher (in fact, your elementary school physics teacher) would slap you silly.

Conservation of momentum states that the momentum of the bullet/shot/whatever will be identical to the momentum of the gun (recoil).

Newton's third law states that the force on the projectile will be the same as the force on the gun. FYI, it's a peak of approximately 4,800 pounds, for buckshot.

Neither of those means that the recoil will have anywhere near the same effect on your shoulder as the pellets do to the other guy. Why? Because the gun is heavier. During the time that the powder gases push on the pellets (i.e., until they exit the barrel), the pellets move the entire length of the barrel, minus recoil distance. And if you watch any high speed junk, the recoil distance is very short, on the order of a tiny fraction of an inch, by the time the pellets exit.

Energy = force * distance. The pellets move 18-20" or so for your average home defense shotgun, while the gun moves... call it 1/4" (the pellets are long gone by the time you feel the recoil). That means the recoil energy will be about 1.4% of the energy on the pellets, is my guesstimate.

Doing the math, let's say 12 pellets of 00 at 1200 fps, that's 2072 ft-lbs of energy, 3.45 sg*ft/sec of momentum. In an 8 pound shotgun, that's 13.9 fps of recoil, or 24 ft-lbs energy and 3.45 sg*ft/sec momentum. Whaddya know, that's 1.2% of the pellets' energy. I was close.

Conservation of momentum states that the gun and pellets must have the same momentum. Pellet mass * pellet velocity = gun mass * gun velocity

Conservation of energy only states that the kinetic energy on the pellets + kinetic energy on gun + sound energy + heat energy + light energy + vibrational energy + enthalpy of gunpowder combustion products + any other energy I'm forgetting = the amount of energy originally stored in the gunpowder and primer.

Kinetic energy may not have that much to do with wounding in the real world, but that doesn't mean you can misinterpret the basic laws of physics to suit your argument. A shotgun which recoiled with 2072 ft-lbs of recoil (129 feet per second on an 8 pound gun) would break bones, period. To put that in perspective, a hard, wild, haymaker swing of a baseball bat might get it up to 129 fps, and a bat weighs less than half as much as a shotgun.


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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on pag
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:57 am 
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black_noise wrote:
so, why go 00 shot, how deep do you really need to penetrate, It looks like of you shot someone with thier shirt off you might go through them


http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=174449

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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on pag
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:16 am 
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arrkhal wrote:
Okay, I was doing a google search for something else entirely, but I came across this little gem, and basically had to register just to say something.


Welcome! Please stick around, as it seems you’re not unfamiliar with firearms, and you’ve got some great things to offer.

Quote:
Quote:
IOW, the "kinetic energy" delivered to the target will always be equal to (and never more) than the energy delivered to the shooter's shoulder.


No. Just plain no. Absolutely, totally wrong. Your high school physics teacher (in fact, your elementary school physics teacher) would slap you silly.


I believe you are correct. :oops: I got so caught up in the Kinetic Energy fallacy that I used the terminology myself. I should have used "force” and/or “momentum” to counter the argument. Mea Culpa.

ETA: In my defense, I did use "force" in the previous two posts to address the argument. :wink:

I will restate the position using your words, since they are a heck of a lot better than mine.

Quote:
…Conservation of momentum states that the momentum of the bullet/shot/whatever will be identical to the momentum of the gun (recoil)….

…Newton's third law states that the force on the projectile will be the same as the force on the gun...


Since we drifted to an exploration of “Kinetic Energy”…

A small but significant clarification on your calculations: They are valid for a single projectile only (like a slug). Past the muzzle, each pellet has its own vector, mass, velocity, and energy. The effect is individual and not cumulative.

The actual Ek of each pellet of #00 buck moving at ~1300 ft/sec at the muzzle is ~200 ft/lbs, dropping off ~40 ft/lbs by 25 yards. By way of comparison, that’s somewhere between standard velocity .22 and .22 mag as far as delivered kinetic energy goes.

None of it matters, because if the projectile penetrates at all, the energy transfer is not a single, instantaneous “dump” delivering everything at once (as some proponents would claim).

Sorry for the digression…

Quote:
Kinetic energy may not have that much to do with wounding in the real world, but that doesn't mean you can misinterpret the basic laws of physics to suit your argument.


Again, sincere apologies. Although it was not my intention to misrepresent the physics behind the argument, it seems that you took it that way. Thank you for the schooling. I’m glad to see someone trying to keep me honest.
:B3

The facts remain; kinetic energy has virtually nothing to do with terminal ballistics, and the force imparted to the target is less than the force imparted to the shooter (it's an open system, with gravity and drag acting on the payload over time, reducing velocity, force, momentum, and energy).

Would my absolution be complete if I edited my post above to read as below?

Quote:
IOW, the force delivered to the target will always be equal to (and never more) than the force delivered to the shooter's shoulder.

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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 4
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:57 pm 
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I admit I was sort of skimming the thread. Like I said, I was looking for something else (pictures of what #6 or smaller shot will do after going through two layers of wallboard; coulda sworn I had seen some on The Box o' Truth, but apparently not).

Anyways, editing would help clarify a lot, though it's actually that the total force vectors on the gun will equal the force on the shot (I'm used to thinking in terms of regular rifle/pistol bullets). The force on your shoulder, compared to on target... actually, that might be interesting. I'm honestly not sure what that comparison would look like, and I kind of like doing math just for fun, sometimes.

Let's see, 00 pellets usually penetrate about 15" in gelatin. Round it to 2,000 ft-lbs energy total, and 1.25 feet... that's a combined force of 1,600 pounds on target, or ~133 lbs per pellet.

Whereas the gun recoils with 24 ft-lbs energy, and the previous figure was 1/4" of movement during the acceleration phase, which was close enough for jazz... 1152 pounds! Yikes! That would certainly explain the state of my shoulder if I don't use a recoil pad.

Looks like the forces are in the same general ballparks, for real world firearms. And of course, force is kind of meaningless, since less penetration = more force, and you generally want 13" to 15" penetration.

But it is certainly possible to have more force on either end. Like if you use birdshot that only penetrates 1"... Say 2,000 ft-lbs again, and 1/12 of a foot, that's actually ~24,000 pounds of force. So there are numerous people (as it's not that uncommon at all for someone to catch a load of birdshot in the torso and then walk themselves into the emergency room) who have absorbed 24,000 pounds of force square in the chest and not even fallen over in many cases.

Force is probably an even worse number to go on than energy.

---

On energy in terms of wounding, though... just for the sake of any energy junkies reading this, the issue could probably use some clarification.

People of the "energy is all" school of thought like to say "energy is the capacity to do work!" Of course, they aren't allowed to twist the laws of physics to suit their purposes, either. :wink: The reality, of course, is that yes, energy is the capacity to do work.

You can sort of think of the kinetic energy of a bullet, pellet, or arrow, as being like a certain amount of gas in your car's tank. The amount of gas you have determines how far you can go. However, the distance you actually go depends on all kinds of things. What kind of car you drive, how fast, etc. An SUV with a hole in the gas tank driven at 125 mph, will go a lot shorter distance than a Geo Metro at 15 mph.

It all comes down to bullet design, like the above example. And bullets usually do their best in a particular, often narrow, range of velocities. Too fast and it breaks up, too slow and it doesn't expand at all. More energy can do more damage, but only if the bullet is up to it. And companies like Cor-Bon do not tend to select appropriate bullets.

---

Oh, yeah, is it possible to change my username on here? I think I'd rather have it be something else if I'm going to stick around.


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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on pag
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:13 pm 
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arrkhal wrote:
I admit I was sort of skimming the thread. Like I said, I was looking for something else (pictures of what #6 or smaller shot will do after going through two layers of wallboard; coulda sworn I had seen some on The Box o' Truth, but apparently not).


You might find this thread interesting, and it links to O_P's tests as well.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... ght=docgkr

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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 4
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:01 pm 
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I've seen very similar diagrams before. Still helpful, but I was looking for a picture for different reasons. I know better than to use birdshot for home defense. :)

I'd kinda rather change my name on here before going into detail, though. I recently learned that there's someone else out there with apparently the same taste in very obscure old comic books (whence my name is derived), and I'd rather not be mistaken for him. Doesn't help that he's one of the few literate people on the internet, too, and seems to be a gun enthusiast, otherwise I wouldn't worry.

One of my friends had that problem once, picked the most obscure, esoteric name he could think of for his online handle, and then one day, out of the blue, some weirdo thinks he's someone else that uses the same name, and starts netstalking him and sending bizarre e-mails like "hey, I left that dime bag in your car, okay?" Geesh.

So I've been quietly abandoning accounts with this name lately, and I guess I was sorta distracted and ended up using my usual handle here.

But, what the heck, you only live once. Maybe I can drum up some interest.

I've been working the past few months on developing shotgun ammo that has vastly reduced penetration in drywall and other building materials, compared to living tissue. The goal is to make a slug that'll stop inside of a single interior wall, yet meet FBI specs in geletin (bare, clothed, and with pork ribs in front of it). Sounds really outlandish, I know. I wouldn't believe it either, if someone else decided to claim they'd done it!

But so far, I'd say I've been very successful. My current prototype, which was hacked together in my basement, fails to go through 2 layers of 1/2" sheetrock about 1/3rd of the time, and travels maybe 2 feet further the rest of the time. Against gallon milk jugs with raw chicken thigh bones in front (I'd hate to waste perfectly good pork ribs on such an early test), it goes through 2 jugs and puts a big enough dent on the front of the 3rd one to make it leak. Using MacPherson's equations, I'm guesstimating 8-9" in gelatin. For prototype #1, that's certainly not too bad. With better equipment and materials, I'm confident I could get a shell which stays in the wall 99% of the time, penetrates 13" to 15" in geletin, and has a terminal effect about halfway between a .45 JHP and a reduced-recoil 12 ga slug. Just need money, time, and fair weather.

Anyway, I've been thinking ahead, to what I'm going to do for demonstrations to try and get funding and/or sales. I'm thinking something like a small wall, and a plastic baby doll that's filled with red-dyed water or stage blood, and I wanted to know if #6 birdshot would shred a doll after passing through an interior wall. It should be an effective, if gruesome, demonstration. "This isn't something you want to happen to your family, or anyone else's. You need to buy this ammunition." I certainly plan on using the stuff, anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on pag
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:59 pm 
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arrkhal wrote:
Force is probably an even worse number to go on than energy.


Should we try for momentum then? :twisted:

Quote:
Oh, yeah, is it possible to change my username on here? I think I'd rather have it be something else if I'm going to stick around.


Brother, I'd leave it as-is. You've gained enough credibility in a few posts that I'd say it's worth keeping it. If you're adamant about it, shoot a PM to Grizzlywinmag, as he'd be the guy to talk to about the possibility.

Looking forward to hearing more of your project.

ETA:
arrkhal wrote:
... it is certainly possible to have more force on either end. Like if you use birdshot that only penetrates 1"... Say 2,000 ft-lbs again, and 1/12 of a foot, that's actually ~24,000 pounds of force. So there are numerous people (as it's not that uncommon at all for someone to catch a load of birdshot in the torso and then walk themselves into the emergency room) who have absorbed 24,000 pounds of force square in the chest and not even fallen over in many cases.


Please remember: It’s an open system. Drag and gravity are in play on one while they can be pretty well ignored on the other, the target will (hopefully) be at distance (not at the muzzle), and each projo must be treated individually once past the muzzle in regards to the physics of the exterior and terminal ballistics. All of that adds up to less force on target (even with zero penetration) than the gun (and consequently the shooter).

We could probably go back and forth on the particulars, but we might want to save that for a different thread... the topic is 12 Gauge wound profiles. :wink:

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 Post subject: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 4
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:44 am 
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Okay, one more:

This just got posted in the thread on body armor by SJohnny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCzD5uhSViY

It's got everything one could hope for: 12G slugs, .50 BMG, kinetic energy dumps and Newton's Third Law.

:twisted:

Hopefully, it puts the Ek argument to bed.



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Embrace your wear marks. - 870Pilot


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