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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:12 pm 
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Maytruthprevail wrote:
I am an amateur sleuth...

My question to the experts on this forum is if someone was shot at close range like this how would the body react to the impact. What are the chances of the body laying neatly between all the packages on the floor with little blood spatter. Would she have been able to accomplis this by using her toe. Do you see anything here that I am missing. I could post some pictures, but I'd leave the graphic ones out.

I'm not an expert, but have done a certian amount of reading on stuff like this. So take my comments with a grain of salt (or a rock). I'm having a hard time pictureing the scene so posting the pictures in an unlisted album such as a picasa account and linking to it from here with a graphic warning might help.

The lack of blood splater is a little odd if the pellets exited. Was there blood elsewhere to suggest the body was moved? Bird shot dosen't penetrate with much force, so it is possible.

Were both shoots in the same direction?

If she had killed herself in that manner, I would expect that she would let go of the gun at the moment of discharge and drop. If she was on her back, she had to have been leaning back somewhat. I would expect that the barrel of the gun would be facing the opposite direction of her head since the recoil would throw the gun down at an angle causeing the barrel end to pivot away from the angle of the shoot. Even if she had her left leg wrapped in front of the gun to stabilize it, I would expect the gun to have pitched to her rightside. I would not expect the gun to be pointing in the same direction it was fired.

The entry wound also does not sound like a contact wound which should be expected if she had killed herself. If you want to test the theory, get a pig and shoot it point blank under the jaw and see what the entry wound looks like. I would expect a hole the size of the barrel, not 2.5". Oval also implies that the shot did not enter perpendicular to the surface. You can also see what type of spatter you get. Following your theory, I can picture a disarm technique taught in military groups that starts by having the barrel pointed up and back and results in the rifle being held at about a 45 degree upward angle pointed at the disarmed persons neck / head. A right handed person doing it would leave the gun pointed at the disarmed person's left side.

Good luck with your quest.




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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:48 pm 
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inbox485 wrote:
Maytruthprevail wrote:
I am an amateur sleuth...

My question to the experts on this forum is if someone was shot at close range like this how would the body react to the impact. What are the chances of the body laying neatly between all the packages on the floor with little blood spatter. Would she have been able to accomplis this by using her toe. Do you see anything here that I am missing. I could post some pictures, but I'd leave the graphic ones out.

I'm not an expert, but have done a certian amount of reading on stuff like this. So take my comments with a grain of salt (or a rock). I'm having a hard time pictureing the scene so posting the pictures in an unlisted album such as a picasa account and linking to it from here with a graphic warning might help.

The lack of blood splater is a little odd if the pellets exited. Was there blood elsewhere to suggest the body was moved? Bird shot dosen't penetrate with much force, so it is possible.

Were both shoots in the same direction?

If she had killed herself in that manner, I would expect that she would let go of the gun at the moment of discharge and drop. If she was on her back, she had to have been leaning back somewhat. I would expect that the barrel of the gun would be facing the opposite direction of her head since the recoil would throw the gun down at an angle causeing the barrel end to pivot away from the angle of the shoot. Even if she had her left leg wrapped in front of the gun to stabilize it, I would expect the gun to have pitched to her rightside. I would not expect the gun to be pointing in the same direction it was fired.

The entry wound also does not sound like a contact wound which should be expected if she had killed herself. If you want to test the theory, get a pig and shoot it point blank under the jaw and see what the entry wound looks like. I would expect a hole the size of the barrel, not 2.5". Oval also implies that the shot did not enter perpendicular to the surface. You can also see what type of spatter you get. Following your theory, I can picture a disarm technique taught in military groups that starts by having the barrel pointed up and back and results in the rifle being held at about a 45 degree upward angle pointed at the disarmed persons neck / head. A right handed person doing it would leave the gun pointed at the disarmed person's left side.

Good luck with your quest.


The first shot went off (facing the closet entrance) to the left at a high degree angle I would say at 11 o'clock. Her wound to the head was at te opposite corner of the closet. Again the investigator thought that her first shot was a "miss"and the gun slipped and shot through the upper wall. I agree with your disarmament theory, like in the police or military when someone has a gun pointed at you, it is deflected using your left arm and raise the barrel upwards and the shot went up over her right shoulder with the gun upside down

The attacker could have his own weapon and shot her under her left jaw with his right hand. I have looked at other suicide photos and believe me there is lots of blood, bright red blood. In her case there is no blood down the front of her blouse, nary a drop. Her blood pools under her head and runs down her sleeve of her blouse and upwards. Her arms are bent at the elbows. Her left hand is laying on her midriff and her right hand is cradleing the tip of the barrel with her elbow bent and her writst bentl. There are clothes in the closet and they have spots they are not drenched in blood. I was wondering if it was possible that the intruder killed her with a small caliber weapon like a 22 and then placed her in position and stood over her and shot the shotgun into the entry wound to hide it, that would be at the angle you suggsted. Thre reason I am wondering about her being dead before being shot with the shotgun was her blood was maroon or eggplant in color not bright red. Do you know anything about the blood?

Also please tell me how to post pictures here. I have a photobucket set to private with some pictures on it. But I don't know how to post pictures here.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:55 pm 
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Maytruthprevail wrote:
inbox485 wrote:
Maytruthprevail wrote:
I am an amateur sleuth...

My question to the experts on this forum is if someone was shot at close range like this how would the body react to the impact. What are the chances of the body laying neatly between all the packages on the floor with little blood spatter. Would she have been able to accomplis this by using her toe. Do you see anything here that I am missing. I could post some pictures, but I'd leave the graphic ones out.

I'm not an expert, but have done a certian amount of reading on stuff like this. So take my comments with a grain of salt (or a rock). I'm having a hard time pictureing the scene so posting the pictures in an unlisted album such as a picasa account and linking to it from here with a graphic warning might help.

The lack of blood splater is a little odd if the pellets exited. Was there blood elsewhere to suggest the body was moved? Bird shot dosen't penetrate with much force, so it is possible.

Were both shoots in the same direction?

If she had killed herself in that manner, I would expect that she would let go of the gun at the moment of discharge and drop. If she was on her back, she had to have been leaning back somewhat. I would expect that the barrel of the gun would be facing the opposite direction of her head since the recoil would throw the gun down at an angle causeing the barrel end to pivot away from the angle of the shoot. Even if she had her left leg wrapped in front of the gun to stabilize it, I would expect the gun to have pitched to her rightside. I would not expect the gun to be pointing in the same direction it was fired.

The entry wound also does not sound like a contact wound which should be expected if she had killed herself. If you want to test the theory, get a pig and shoot it point blank under the jaw and see what the entry wound looks like. I would expect a hole the size of the barrel, not 2.5". Oval also implies that the shot did not enter perpendicular to the surface. You can also see what type of spatter you get. Following your theory, I can picture a disarm technique taught in military groups that starts by having the barrel pointed up and back and results in the rifle being held at about a 45 degree upward angle pointed at the disarmed persons neck / head. A right handed person doing it would leave the gun pointed at the disarmed person's left side.

Good luck with your quest.


The first shot went off (facing the closet entrance) to the left at a high degree angle I would say at 11 o'clock. Her wound to the head was at te opposite corner of the closet. Again the investigator thought that her first shot was a "miss"and the gun slipped and shot through the upper wall. I agree with your disarmament theory, like in the police or military when someone has a gun pointed at you, it is deflected using your left arm and raise the barrel upwards and the shot went up over her right shoulder with the gun upside down

The attacker could have his own weapon and shot her under her left jaw with his right hand. I have looked at other suicide photos and believe me there is lots of blood, bright red blood. In her case there is no blood down the front of her blouse, nary a drop. Her blood pools under her head and runs down her sleeve of her blouse and upwards. Her arms are bent at the elbows. Her left hand is laying on her midriff and her right hand is cradleing the tip of the barrel with her elbow bent and her writst bentl. There are clothes in the closet and they have spots they are not drenched in blood. I was wondering if it was possible that the intruder killed her with a small caliber weapon like a 22 and then placed her in position and stood over her and shot the shotgun into the entry wound to hide it, that would be at the angle you suggsted. Thre reason I am wondering about her being dead before being shot with the shotgun was her blood was maroon or eggplant in color not bright red. Do you know anything about the blood?

Also please tell me how to post pictures here. I have a photobucket set to private with some pictures on it. But I don't know how to post pictures here.


I don't know how to post pictures here (I'm not sure you really can), but if you go to http://picasaweb.google.com and start an account there, you can upload the photos to an album and set it to unlisted. It won't show up in search results, but anybody with the link can see it.

The shots facing opposite directions make the suicide theory all but impossible IMO. Unless she decided to turn around the second time, both shots should have had a similar trajectory.

I don't know enough to comment on the blood, but your theories sound plausible. Bright red blood in oxygenated, dark red blood is not. If you can confirm that red cells do not oxygenate after death, then I'd say you have good evidence the blood loss was post mortem, not peri mortem. Another consideration is if the color is just the appearance of the photos.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:34 am 
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i regret to inform the board that i have lost access to the FTP all the images were uploaded on and i have also lost the originals to an emergency reformat.

the site i got them form is also gone so i have no way to recover any of them.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:53 pm 
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Montana, it was a good run. Thanks for putting the pics up when you had them.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:18 pm 
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montana bound wrote:
i regret to inform the board that i have lost access to the FTP all the images were uploaded on and i have also lost the originals to an emergency reformat.

the site i got them form is also gone so i have no way to recover any of them.



I thought I had them saved, but I can't find them. Tell me somebody else saved them!


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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:54 am 
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seems they wernt removed from the ftp after all

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:07 pm 
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montana bound wrote:
seems they wernt removed from the ftp after all


Montanabound, I am greatful for everything you've done. If it will help, I have my own server, and may be able to host the photos for you gratis. If you'rew interested, LMK. I can upload the photos that are present now, give you the URLs, and we can work out a procudure to get future photos uploaded.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:10 am 
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packed them all up and emailed them to myself so they will sit on gmails server in case anything happens again.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:08 am 
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Roger. Offer stands for hosting.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:47 pm 
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Maytruthprevail wrote:
I am an amateur sleuth researching what I believe to be a murder made to look like a suicide with a 12 gauge shotgun using .006 sportload birdshot. This took place 3 1/2 years ago. I have all the public record crime scene photos of this case.


Maytruthprevail-
I'd have to see the documentation and the photos before I could form an opinion. I've investigated several strange deaths before- so nothing surprises me anymore.
I'd be happy to have a look if you have a way of sending it.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:10 am 
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Seen the perp who critically shot a cop with a .45 then killed himself; in the police station, with the same gun. Nobody shook him down.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:00 am 
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Maytruthprevail, from what you wrote I would be taking a hard look at Col. Mustard.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:03 pm 
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AWESOME sticky!

This also further confirms why I keep Federal #4 Magnum Buckshot in my Mossy. 34 wound individual wound channels will reach many internals & spreads better at shorter distances. Penitration is spot-on with the average 5-7 yard shot that occurs in a home defence senario.

Thank you for this sticky.

RR


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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:54 am 
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Roadracer, the gel in the tests that accompany this thread wasn't calibrated correctly, and the penetration numbers are quite a bit larger than they should be when corrected for the error.

#1 buck has been recognized as the smallest pellet that reliably penetrates to 12" in gel for the last decade, and that info has not changed. For reliable penetration, #1, #0, #00 or #000 are indicated. #4 just doesn't quite do it.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:53 pm 
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FMD wrote:
Roadracer, the gel in the tests that accompany this thread wasn't calibrated correctly, and the penetration numbers are quite a bit larger than they should be when corrected for the error.

#1 buck has been recognized as the smallest pellet that reliably penetrates to 12" in gel for the last decade, and that info has not changed. For reliable penetration, #1, #0, #00 or #000 are indicated. #4 just doesn't quite do it.


#4 is generally recognized as being the minimum for HD since it tends to penetrate more than enough for the frontal hits typical in HD. The 12" standard is to get to the heart from the right side of an average person starting with the arm. There is a reason the same 12" standard is irrelevant to QCB knives.

Also, I missed where the calibration offset was mentioned. Do you have a table showing the error?


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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:16 pm 
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inbox485 wrote:
#4 is generally recognized as being the minimum for HD since it tends to penetrate more than enough for the frontal hits typical in HD. The 12" standard is to get to the heart from the right side of an average person starting with the arm.

The point is that you DO NOT KNOW what target will be presented to you. You cannot assume that you will get the best possible shot (frontal) as people tend to move when they are being shot at. Do you have any evidence that a frontal shot is "typical" in HD scenarios? Or did you just make that one up or are you just repeating something you heard some where? Even if it was a "typical" shot, how do you know that the person you are going to be shooting at will give you the "typical" frontal profile, you can't so prepare for the worst case scenario. By choosing a bullet or shell that does not meet the minimum 12" standard, you are unnecessarily handicapping yourself for no good reason, as 00 buck is both cheap and readily available.
inbox485 wrote:
There is a reason the same 12" standard is irrelevant to QCB knives.

Knives are not an acceptable weapon for the average person to use in a fight. They take too much training to be proficient at. They are no match for a gun (which you have to assume a person breaking into your house has). They require you to get within arms reach of your attacker. They do not reliably incapacitate a person quickly enough that they cannot hurt you even after being stabbed many times. You use what you have to in a fight, but counting on an edged weapon is not nearly the best option.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:53 pm 
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cmug870 wrote:
inbox485 wrote:
#4 is generally recognized as being the minimum for HD since it tends to penetrate more than enough for the frontal hits typical in HD. The 12" standard is to get to the heart from the right side of an average person starting with the arm.

The point is that you DO NOT KNOW what target will be presented to you. You cannot assume that you will get the best possible shot (frontal) as people tend to move when they are being shot at. Do you have any evidence that a frontal shot is "typical" in HD scenarios? Or did you just make that one up or are you just repeating something you heard some where? Even if it was a "typical" shot, how do you know that the person you are going to be shooting at will give you the "typical" frontal profile, you can't so prepare for the worst case scenario. By choosing a bullet or shell that does not meet the minimum 12" standard, you are unnecessarily handicapping yourself for no good reason, as 00 buck is both cheap and readily available.
inbox485 wrote:
There is a reason the same 12" standard is irrelevant to QCB knives.

Knives are not an acceptable weapon for the average person to use in a fight. They take too much training to be proficient at. They are no match for a gun (which you have to assume a person breaking into your house has). They require you to get within arms reach of your attacker. They do not reliably incapacitate a person quickly enough that they cannot hurt you even after being stabbed many times. You use what you have to in a fight, but counting on an edged weapon is not nearly the best option.


Whoa! Chill out a bit. Yes I realize that you may need to make an odd shot, but you may also need armor piercing ammo even level II soft armor tends to stop slugs and 000 Buck even though it isn't rated for it. My "evidence" of frontal shots being typical is that I've seen a lot of reports/vids/etc, and have yet to see an HD shot that wasn't frontal. I know that isn't a guarantee of anything, but as I said, you don't know if OOO Buck will get the job done either, so knowing that #4 Buck will be good enough for the vast majority of HD shots you might need to take is useful info. Do with it what you want. I use 00 Buck because that is what I patterned in my gun, and I can always find the same brand and load at Walmart.

I wasn't suggesting using a knife instead of a gun. Guns have range, while knives - not so much. My point was that you don't need 12" of penetration to get the job done. Most people couldn't stab 12" into another person. FYI, shot for stab, I guarantee I could incapacitate a person faster with a knife. Bullets poke holes, knives make it so you can drop a guy with a handle bar in their heart. In a grapple, I'd take a knife over a gun in a second. I prefer guns in general because as I said they have range. I'd rather avoid the grapple to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:48 pm 
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inbox485 wrote:
My "evidence" of frontal shots being typical is that I've seen a lot of reports/vids/etc, and have yet to see an HD shot that wasn't frontal.

You are kidding, right? Even if you could provide a lot of examples of frontal shots made in HD scenario, without some sort of quantitative analysis from an authority on the subject, your examples are worthless as evidence of your point.
inbox485 wrote:
so knowing that #4 Buck will be good enough for the vast majority of HD shots you might need to take is useful info.

No, it is not. It is actually irresponsible for a person to say such things in an arena where people come to learn info on the proper way to defend themselves and their families. Saying that 00 is "good enough", because it meets the FBI standard of 12" of penetration would be useful info. Lots of people smarter and better funded than either you or I actually performed scientific, peer reviewed research and they found it to be an acceptable round. You are an anonymous guy on the internet that claims to have seen "reports/vids/etc", do you really think you are more credible than the FBI? If so, you would be making a lot of money publishing your reports and research as every police and military unit would be interested. Money is king, so I will just assume that you are not getting rich educating the world on your theory because you are just giving it out for free. Therefore, you do not have any credibility.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:02 pm 
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inbox485 wrote:
#4 is generally recognized as being the minimum for HD

By whom?
Quote:
since it tends to penetrate more than enough for the frontal hits typical in HD.

I have never heard of that criteria, and I would absolutely not use it or pay any attention to it if I did.
Quote:
The 12" standard is to get to the heart from the right side of an average person starting with the arm.

Ever see someone in an Iso or even Modified Weaver? Those arms are in the front of the thoracic cavity most likely. Same as if the person were holding a rifle, carbine, or shotgun. Same as if someone were in a pugilistic stance or armed with a knife. So even though it may not be a lateral shot, you still may need to go through the hand/arm to hit vitals. That is why 12" is the minimum.
Quote:
There is a reason the same 12" standard is irrelevant to QCB knives.

Knives have a totally different wounding mechanism and are largely irrelevant to this discussion.
Quote:
Also, I missed where the calibration offset was mentioned. Do you have a table showing the error?

If you look at calibrated ballistic gel blocks you will see a small BB track. That track shows that the gel is properly consistent. The tracks in these tests are too long showing too much penetration due to soft gel.
It isn't mentioned because it is an understood convention in measuring/projecting terminal ballistics with calibrated gel.
Quote:
Yes I realize that you may need to make an odd shot, but you may also need armor piercing ammo even level II soft armor tends to stop slugs and 000 Buck even though it isn't rated for it.

Under those circumstances carbine > shotgun, and that is why a lot of people use one.
Quote:
My "evidence" of frontal shots being typical is that I've seen a lot of reports/vids/etc, and have yet to see an HD shot that wasn't frontal. I know that isn't a guarantee of anything, but as I said, you don't know if OOO Buck will get the job done either, so knowing that #4 Buck will be good enough for the vast majority of HD shots you might need to take is useful info.

The problem is you don't know that #4B is going to be good enough, and it has not shown itself to penetrate deeply enough to pass the FBI minimum. Those that study contemporary terminal ballistics pretty much all recommend #1B as the smallest that will reliably reach 12" and that yardstick is there for a reason.
Quote:
Do with it what you want. I use 00 Buck because that is what I patterned in my gun, and I can always find the same brand and load at Walmart.

I'd rather use 00 because I know it will hit that 12" minimum regardless of what part of the body I have to shoot through, or what anatomical structures are in the way, or what item of clothing the target is wearing.



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