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 Post subject: Re: re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:08 pm 
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m24shooter wrote:
inbox485 wrote:
FMD wrote:
Read more post less.


More content less bile.


Haven't you said you were done here? Twice?

^^^From the record since you seem to think it disapears the moment you type something to the contrary...
FMD wrote:
The context was included (M24 quoted both my post and your response exactly) and clear. You might want to consider a remedial class in comprehention before he Shooter runs for office.

The only time I mentioned being "done here" was in reference to debating #4 buck for HD use. There was plenty for people to read and make there own decisions and continuing a conversation with people that refused not only to be civil, but to maintain even the slightest shred of logical or rational integrity was a waste of time. Shooter paraphrased that quote as if I wouldn't ever post again. Hence out of context. While were on the topic of comprehension, this might make for a good read seeing as I rarely see a post from you that isn't a flame of some sort.




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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:54 pm 
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inbox485 wrote:
I rarely see a post from you that isn't a flame of some sort.


I am lazy and not willing to read through all his posts, but I will venture a guess that if FMD said it, it was worth hearing/reading. I cannot recall him saying anything here or on his Youtube videos that was not good info, well thought out and as accurate as is reasonable.
NO, we aren't dating. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:19 pm 
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What still confounds me is that we can see 20+ inches of penetration, yet we consistently see cases of buckshot wounds not completely penetrating a victim's body. But, you'll see `18 inches of penetration from a hollow-point magnum pistol cartridge, but rarely see a case of the round not penetrating the torso completely. I have a feeling skin has something to do with this, but I'm not sure.
Anyone care to explain? I'd really appreciate some salaciousness.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:55 am 
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Here you go Shiraku.
Lot's of good stuff in the links further down the page.


http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:29 am 
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The hollowpoint magnum pistol rounds that come out of my magnum are 125 grains and are leaving the barrel at 1450fps. That's a significantly heavier projectile moving at a faster pace. Momentum.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Thanks Hotel, lots of good stuff, and I figured out my dilemma. Johnny's right(as usual) and the momentum carried is the 'real deal'. With loads like buckshot or lower caliber pistols that show these 36cm or more of penetration, but consistently don't leave exit wounds, I got to thinking that these gel tests were just lies. But no, things like bones, skin and other stuff suck the energy right out of the pellet and let it burn out. Since gel doesn't have bones, I blanked out and took it at face value. So score one for everyone else and score zip for myself, =D.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:11 am 
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A few of you have been reading the blog about a "suicide" that I believe was a murder. I was wondering if any of you had comments about what would indicate to you that she either committed suicide or was murdered and made to look like a suicide.

Things to consider:
the 12 gauge shotgun was a sears remington purchased over 50 years ago.
The shotgun had not been fired in over 20 years.
The #6 birdshot shotgun shells were kept in a bottom drawer of a nightstand in a box
The shotgun "magazine" holding 3 shells was in the top drawer of the nightstand
Both drawers were closed.
There was a fork lying on the carpet about 3 feet from the nightstand
The shotgun was stored in the grandparents closet in the Master bedroom behind clothes
The case for the shotgun was found laid across the bed on the side near the master bedroom closet
The nightstand was on the opposite side of the bed
THE MAGAZINE WAS JAMMED IN BACKWARDS IN THE SHOTGUN
TWO SHOTS WERE FIRED: one into the outter wall of the adjoining bedroom's closet
the second entered the victim via her left jawbone
The 3 shells in the magazine were still intact.
The 2 shells fired had to be manually inserted
The victim was only 4"10 inches very petite
If in fact the Victim fired both shots, would the first shot (inside the 5 x 5 closet - door open) cause deafness in the victim?
And how would the victim have been able to fire the second shot
Did she take two bullets with her into the closet - in case she missed?


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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:27 pm 
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Interesting. You said that these were fired from a distance of 3 feet? I would be also interested in seeing what would happen from 6 feet and 10 feet.
I would think that this might give a truer picture of effectiveness against a home invader.
If you are waiting until someone is only arms length away, he probably shot you already.
If someone pulls a piece and points it in my direction, I would think I might shoot first and call 911 later.
CA

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:16 pm 
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If you are responding to the OP, I believe the rounds were fired from 3 and 5 yards, not feet.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:28 am 
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3-5 yards, that makes a big difference, I must have read it wrong.
3 feet means hand to hand.
I am ready for that.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:30 pm 
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http://www.njskeet.com/files/shotgun_statistics.pdf

Some interesting info on ballistics of bird shot.

Sent from my ADR8995 using Tapatalk

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:02 pm 
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Thank you for posting this. Lots of time and effort represented here. I appreciate that.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:10 am 
Posted here for posterity and some very good information. I have attended countles trauma symposiums on wounding mechanisms and never recorded them. I should have done so. This one should be required for everyone who considers a firearm for self defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA


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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:45 am 
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This is impressive work!


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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:10 pm 
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after testing out a box of ball and chain rounds i would like to see what they do to a gel cube

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:55 pm 
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If you didn't test them in calibrated gel, what did you test them on?

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:30 pm 
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m24shooter wrote:
If you didn't test them in calibrated gel, what did you test them on?

hehehe 2x4s lol

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Awesome test and interesting dialogue guys. I would like to add my two cents. Consider this: if confronted by a BG and you shoot him below the ribcage, the first thing the bullet/slug/shot comes into contact with would be soft, squishy, non-elastic internal organs, in which case lead BB, birdshot, or #1 would do the job nicely with its massive though relatively shallow wounds. The same could be said about a low velocity pistol caliber hollowpoint, ie a 45acp. However, if you were to practice the chest area doubletap as recommended by most defense experts, the projectiles would have to punch through the breastplate/ribcage BEFORE it could effect vital tissue, in which case the heavier pellets and greater retained energy of OO buck or slug would be preferable. Let us not forget that hollowpoints of all calibers are designed for optimal performance in water, which is considered a decent analog for human organ tissue which is made up mostly of water. However, if you practice chest shots at the range, you need to consider what the bullet would be striking in a human body, muscle then heavy bone THEN squishy vitals and choose ammunition accordingly. A hollowpoint pistol bullet that is designed to expand quickly in gelatin or small lead shot would likely be so disrupted that its terminal performance would be compromised. I choose tough, hot loaded middleweight hollowpoints like DPX or Gold Dot in my G20 for their combination of retained energy and high velocity to ensure lethal effectiveness through any medium, and for the same reason use low recoil OO buck and slugs in my shotty. Again thats just one mans opinion, food for thought.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 8:42 am 
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Welcome to the forum, Nick.

At the risk of running you off early....

nickt0185 wrote:
Awesome test and interesting dialogue guys. I would like to add my two cents. Consider this: if confronted by a BG and you shoot him below the ribcage, the first thing the bullet/slug/shot comes into contact with would be soft, squishy, non-elastic internal organs, in which case lead BB, birdshot, or #1 would do the job nicely with its massive though relatively shallow wounds.


Nick: Your assertion is incorrect. The projectiles would need enough penetration to reach the descending aorta or vena cava in order to produce rapid exsanguination. No bird shot will penetrate that deeply, period.

Quote:
The same could be said about a low velocity pistol caliber hollowpoint, ie a 45acp. However, if you were to practice the chest area doubletap as recommended by most defense experts, the projectiles would have to punch through the breastplate/ribcage BEFORE it could effect vital tissue, in which case the heavier pellets and greater retained energy of OO buck or slug would be preferable. Let us not forget that hollowpoints of all calibers are designed for optimal performance in water, which is considered a decent analog for human organ tissue which is made up mostly of water.


Modern hollowpoints are designed to expand in human flesh, and are extensively tested for both penetration and expansion in a prepared block of 10% ordnance gelatin calibrated per the FBI protocol. Intervening bone structures are generally not included in the test block, but (along with oblique angles) are calculated into the penetration recommended numbers.

Those designs are also tested for penetration after hitting/passing through intervening structures much harder than bone: Automobile windshields and doors.

Quote:
However, if you practice chest shots at the range, you need to consider what the bullet would be striking in a human body, muscle then heavy bone THEN squishy vitals and choose ammunition accordingly.


This is why ballisticians have come up with designs that penetrate a minimum of 12", and optimum of 15-18" in properly prepared gel.

Quote:
A hollowpoint pistol bullet that is designed to expand quickly in gelatin or small lead shot would likely be so disrupted that its terminal performance would be compromised.


Any projectile that deforms by design will have some compromised performance when intervening structures are encountered. The question is "how compromised?" Many modern HPs are designed to retain effectiveness despite being shot through automobile safety glass and sheet metal.

Quote:
I choose tough, hot loaded middleweight hollowpoints like DPX or Gold Dot in my G20


These are excellent choices...

Quote:
.... for their combination of retained energy and high velocity to ensure lethal effectiveness through any medium,


...for all the wrong reasons.

Quote:
and for the same reason use low recoil OO buck and slugs in my shotty.


Again, excellent choices.

Quote:
Again thats just one mans opinion, food for thought.


There are several links to scholarly articles/white papers written by some of the preeminent wound ballisticians on the planet contained in this thread. Even more than anything else posted by the knowledgeable folks here, they are "food for thought", and should put any debate to rest. They contain no opinion, rather results and recommendations based on scientific facts.

Please don't take any of my response personally, rather understand it is both for your benefit and the benefit of others that may be reading this thread years from now. Errors in perception/old information & theories on wounding mechanisms need to be corrected. It's a matter of life and death. {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:54 am 
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Hi there folks!

Stumbling across this thread put a huge smile on my face! I am the original author of all the gelatin tests and real-world-hunting photos the OP has posted at the beginning of this thread. Glad to write I'm still married to the girl standing next to that poor black bear you can see hanging in my garage back in 2002.

When my kids arrived back in 2004, I for various reasons I took my old website (tacticalworks.ca) down...to see some of it's old content surviving over here sure brings back memories!

Memories of enough fun caused me to have a healthy shot of nostalgia. It also got me thinking about how much better it could be in today's world of HD cameras and YouTube!

That was pretty much it then....I knew what my next project would be and I got busy!

In addition to better video equipment and better media delivery mechanisms, there were other improvements to make. The first was in the actual preparation of the gelatin. Previously, I had been constrained to winter gelatin testing only, as I was using my unheated garage as the source of refrigeration required to make and store the gelatin blocks. I would have to wait until it was cold outside, then use a small space heated to keep my garage at 5 degrees C. I only had one gelatin mold, so it would take me a while to make enough gelatin, and then I would have to wait until the weather was 5 degrees outside so that I could move the gelatin to the range, get setup, and then shoot it while was still the proper temperature. Talk about a pain!

This time around I wanted the freedom to make/store gelatin at any time of the year, so I set out to make a poorboy refrigerator that I could tow anywhere. It is pretty much a chest framed with 2x4s and lined with 4 inches of rigid board insulation. It sits on my utility trailer (so I can tow it anywhere), and is powered by a room air conditioner I've redneck-engineered to maintain 4 degrees celsius inside the chest.

Inbetween bouts of building the refrigerated chest, I got on the phone and ordered up 50 lbs of ballistics gelatin, some dimethylpolysiloxane (de-foamer), and propionic acid (mold & fungus inhibitor). I also had a local sheet meta fabricator make me two 8.5x10x18 gelatin molds from 18 gauge stainless. The last of the materials arrived last week, and this past weekend I set up to cast the first blocks....I was thrilled when the first block slid out of the mold!

Image


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Image

A week later my refrigerated chest was pretty much full, and I spent the long weekend out at my little farm for my first bout of shotgun ballistics gelatin shooting in 10 years! It was a hoot. I started out with a good selection of steel and lead BB, BBB, (both plated and unplaced, some with flight control wads and others with conventional wads). I'm working hard on editing all that footage, and have finally got my first episode posted up on youtube (link below)! My second outing will focus on buckshot, and then on to slugs if I have enought time before the snow flies. One thing I've always wanted to add to the Lbrary is some hunting experience with buckshot....maybe I'll look into that this fall too...:)

Anyway, thanks for rekindling my interest in the 12 gauge....:)...here's that first video I mentioned earlier:

http://youtu.be/YpPXdANtBww

As I have raw footage for a whole lot more, I would love your comments on format and content.

Cheers,

Brobee




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