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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Oldrich wrote:
I too would like to say thanks for the information. I've wondered about how it was done legally. But unfortunately, I think Michigan doesn't allow us to have those. Our AG has recently stated that full auto is now legal, but good luck on getting the chiefs signature.


trust and corporations does away with the LEO signature. I also heard the LEO signature requirement is being dropped from the individual routes.



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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:18 pm 
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I was just about to send in the paperwork to build an AOW using a trust, but I am not in a hurry and would rather build an AOW as an individual if the LEO sign off requirement may be changing.

I plan to build building am 8.25" Remington 870 AOW using Magpul furniture.

I have photos of a mockup of what I hope to build but I have not been able to figure out how to attach them them to this post.

A Magpul MOE forend is 8” long and has integrated forward and rear hand stops. Unlike most conventional forends it extends forward and covers the magazine tube and barrel lug when the action is closed. Theoretically the 0.25" of the barrel extending beyond the forend will protect the forend from muzzle blast.

Because and 870 12g action has requires approximately 4" of travel. I should be able to relieve the rear 4" of the MOE forend to clear the action.

Assuming I have figured out things property I will be able to reuse all of the stock components. Moving forward (after the paperwork comes back from the ATF) it should be a matter of cutting, threading, brazing and refinishing as below.

Of course I have never done this before and I may be way off base.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

Step 1-Shorten and retread the magazine tube
Step 2- Shorten and rethread the 870 forend tube 4" shorter
Step 3-Relive 4" of the inner plastic webbing of the MOE forend to clear the 870 action
Step 4-Install the MOE forend using the stock castle nut
Step 5-Shorten the barrel to 8.25"
Step 6-Re-braze the barrel lug to fit magazine tube
Step 7-Refinish barrel
Step 8-Shorten the magazine spring
Step 9-Install the magazine spring and barrel using the stock magazine cap nut
Step 15-Cut the Magpul SGA buttstock down to pistol grip
Step 9-Fill voids at the rear or the pistol grip with bedding compound and let harden
Step 10- Sand the bedding compound to proper contour and finish
Step 11- Find someone brave enough to fire it

Thank you for you input


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:55 am 
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I did a Trust when I had my AK-74U (8") built. I used the WillMaker software to make the trust and just went to my bank to have them notarize it. It's a nice because it takes LEO out of the picture and I have heard they take forever to process the finger prints (FBI?). After two months and not hearing anything from the ATF, I called them just make sure sure everything was in order and got my Form 1 a week later. If you want to add a weapon you amend the trust and do your normal paper work, but you don't have to do the trust over again. Waiting time is up to 8 months now (non trust).


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The engraving is on the side front of the receiver with the name of the of the Trust and address. Also when it was engraved the selector stops and the Bulgarian markings were added.


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:39 pm 
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my trust took 6 months almost to the day and that was a year ago.

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:15 pm 
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Maybe I was just lucky. I was looking at the dates just to be sure. It was put into the mail Mar 27 2010 and received it May 26 2010. When I called they said it wasn't even being processed yet, so I don't know if she pulled it from a stack and since it was on her desk she processed it. The only reason I mention it is a few other people has similar experiences with the Trust by calling. Someone had said the bottle neck with the individual's applications was in the processing of the finger prints because the FBI was slow to process them and information had to go between two agency's. They could be so busy now that a phone call would piss them off, but the Woman I called was very nice and helpful. I am probably babbling with dated information, it didn't seem that long ago till I actually looked up the dates.

May have been posted already:

http://arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy_NFA_class3_weapons_with_a_revocable_living_trust_without_a_CLEO_signoff.html


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Glock 124g wrote:
I was just about to send in the paperwork to build an AOW using a trust, but I am not in a hurry and would rather build an AOW as an individual if the LEO sign off requirement may be changing.

I plan to build building am 8.25" Remington 870 AOW using Magpul furniture.

I have photos of a mockup of what I hope to build but I have not been able to figure out how to attach them them to this post.

A Magpul MOE forend is 8” long and has integrated forward and rear hand stops. Unlike most conventional forends it extends forward and covers the magazine tube and barrel lug when the action is closed. Theoretically the 0.25" of the barrel extending beyond the forend will protect the forend from muzzle blast.

Because and 870 12g action has requires approximately 4" of travel. I should be able to relieve the rear 4" of the MOE forend to clear the action.

Assuming I have figured out things property I will be able to reuse all of the stock components. Moving forward (after the paperwork comes back from the ATF) it should be a matter of cutting, threading, brazing and refinishing as below.

Of course I have never done this before and I may be way off base.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

Step 1-Shorten and retread the magazine tube
Step 2- Shorten and rethread the 870 forend tube 4" shorter
Step 3-Relive 4" of the inner plastic webbing of the MOE forend to clear the 870 action
Step 4-Install the MOE forend using the stock castle nut
Step 5-Shorten the barrel to 8.25"
Step 6-Re-braze the barrel lug to fit magazine tube
Step 7-Refinish barrel
Step 8-Shorten the magazine spring
Step 9-Install the magazine spring and barrel using the stock magazine cap nut
Step 15-Cut the Magpul SGA buttstock down to pistol grip
Step 9-Fill voids at the rear or the pistol grip with bedding compound and let harden
Step 10- Sand the bedding compound to proper contour and finish
Step 11- Find someone brave enough to fire it

Thank you for you input


I recommend you start with the fore-end. Get it worked out and functioning before you cut the magazine tube.

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:27 am 
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If some one can tell me how to post pictures to the forum I would like to get some input on my working designs.

Thank you


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:31 am 
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I agree with Banshee that it make to start with the the forend modification. I need to relieve enough material to clear the action by 4" and and loading port and still have enough structural integrity for longevity of the forend. MOE forend are only $25.00 and a forend tube is $35.00 so my prototype costs are moderate.

I wont have to cut down the mag tube until the fore end and action bar assemblies are fit and I can still use the stock 18" barrel with mag extension and a bushing until the ATF paperwork comes through.

If my calculation are correct:
A 6 1/2" to to 8 1/4" tube holds 2 rounds
A 10" holds 3 rounds.
A 12" tube holds 4 rounds.

Unless I am missing something I simply cut off coils on the mag spring until I can load two round with normal spring tension, or do I want to have higher or lower spring tension in a shorter magazine tube?

Of hand does anyone know what size die I need to use to cut new threads in the magazine tube?

I plan on taking cutting off coils on the stock spring unti it is just short enough to allow me to load the shells without undue force.

I should be able to do all the work on the fore end, action bars and mag tube while waiting on AFT paperwork. I can put on a mag tube extension and bushing and use the stock 18" barrel in the interim.

Any input is appreciated.

Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:07 am 
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FYI Remington is releasing another batch
MODEL 870™ EXPRESS® SYNTHETIC PISTOL GRIP
Gauge Chamber Mag. Cap. Barrel Length Choke Overall Length Avg. Wt. (lbs.) Order No. MSRP
12 3" 6 18" Fixed Cylinder 30" 6 3/4 25539 $380
Through Lew Horton Distributing Co., Inc. at 508-366-7400. http://www.remington.com/products/firea ... -grip.aspx

These will make nice platforms for AOW's

Last year they were relase under MANUFACTURER NO: 81187


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:21 am 
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As a side note you can purchase an 18” barreled Mossberg Cruiser that ships from the factory with a pistol grip only, or a Remington 870 tactical express 18” pistol grip only and shorten the barrel as much as you would like as long as the firearm is over 26”, this may require the fitting of a birds head or mares leg type of pistol grip. These weapons are not shotguns or firearms made from shotguns because they were never designed to be fired from the shoulder.
The nice thing is that are not subject to NFA regulation are not classified as AOW or SBS. They are "firearms" and are treated like regular handguns because they are not readily concealable (over 26" long), and they were originally built or rebuilt from pistol gripped smoothbore firearms.
At a later point this can be made into an AOW by shortening the fire are below 26" or an SBS by adding a shoulder stock (with proper ATF approval and $200.00 tax stamp). But it is a way to gradually have more compact shot shell smooth bore weapons without any ATF headache.
You may also at any point or remove a full shoulder stock to a pistol griped 18” barrel smooth bore pistol because you are not making a Shotgun you are temporally a stock, you can switch back and forth at will.
You can put a pistol grip any 18” barreled shotgun if the overall length is 26” or more, but you can not shorten the barrel without getting a $200.00 tax stamp and ATF SBS as you are making as weapon made from a shotgun. If you add a shoulder stock to a 17” smooth bore pistol that is making SBS and you will need ATF approval and a $200 tax stamp.
Also be aware however that 26 inch 12G smooth bore weapon by definition do not meet the criteria of readily concealable if you tuck one under your overcoat it may be considered an AOW by the ATF or your local LEO and land you in a world of hurt legal fees, possible felony conviction and subsequent loss the ability to possess any firearms or ammunition.
26” smooth bore pistol griped firearms good and overcoats should never mix.
All of this information is on the ATF website if anyone wants to go this route.
A good write up is also at http://paladinarmory.com/SBSAOW.htm#THE SOCIAL SHOTGUN.
I have no connection with Paladin Armory but the link is there if anyone is interested.


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:41 am 
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Glock 124g wrote:
I agree with Banshee that it make to start with the the forend modification. I need to relieve enough material to clear the action by 4" and and loading port and still have enough structural integrity for longevity of the forend. MOE forend are only $25.00 and a forend tube is $35.00 so my prototype costs are moderate.

I wont have to cut down the mag tube until the fore end and action bar assemblies are fit and I can still use the stock 18" barrel with mag extension and a bushing until the ATF paperwork comes through.

If my calculation are correct:
A 6 1/2" to to 8 1/4" tube holds 2 rounds
A 10" holds 3 rounds.
A 12" tube holds 4 rounds.

Unless I am missing something I simply cut off coils on the mag spring until I can load two round with normal spring tension, or do I want to have higher or lower spring tension in a shorter magazine tube?

Of hand does anyone know what size die I need to use to cut new threads in the magazine tube?

I plan on taking cutting off coils on the stock spring unti it is just short enough to allow me to load the shells without undue force.

I should be able to do all the work on the fore end, action bars and mag tube while waiting on AFT paperwork. I can put on a mag tube extension and bushing and use the stock 18" barrel in the interim.

Any input is appreciated.

Thank you.


Unless I am missing something I simply cut off coils on the mag spring until I can load two round with normal spring tension, or do I want to have higher or lower spring tension in a shorter magazine tube?

I cut my spring down until I could load two rds in the tube.

Of hand does anyone know what size die I need to use to cut new threads in the magazine tube?

The thread is a 1-12 square, NOT ACME. There is no die that I know if, so it will have to be cut single point. I cut mine on a lathe, holding the receiver in a large 4 jaw chuck and the magazine in a steady rest.

I built my shorty complete but with a 18 barrel before I sent the paper work in. I wanted to make sure everything worked before I sent $200 to the FEDS. Once the approved paper work came back I cut the barrel down to 7.00 inch drilled,spot faced and tapped for an Ithaca M&P bead.

here is mine stripped down

Image

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Last edited by Banshee on Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:28 pm 
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This proposed rule may be of interest to those following the thread. {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:41 pm 
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So besides depriving CLEOs of their only tool to prevent people from owning NFA items, what else does this rule change mean for those of us that might want a short barreled shoulder-fired weapon?


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Charlie_B wrote:
So besides depriving CLEOs of their only tool to prevent people from owning NFA items, what else does this rule change mean for those of us that might want a short barreled shoulder-fired weapon?


Well it looks like those using trusts and corporations will have to submit pics and finger prints like everyone else and your CLEO will receive a copy of your request to make or transfer.

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:13 pm 
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Budoka34 wrote:
Well it looks like those using trusts and corporations will have to submit pics and finger prints like everyone else and your CLEO will receive a copy of your request to make or transfer.


So ultimately it's the CLEO that's getting the shaft on the deal with this rule revision? No more risk of some politically appointed figurehead turning you down, if you can pass the background check and have the money you can legally have whichever short barreled weapon you're looking to purchase or construct?


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:09 pm 
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Glock 124g wrote:
... from the factory with a pistol grip only (or as a virgin receiver that was never stocked)...and shorten the barrel as much as you would like as long as the firearm is over 26"...These weapons are not shotguns or firearms made from shotguns because they were never designed to be fired from the shoulder. The nice thing is that are not subject to NFA regulation are not classified as AOW or SBS. They are "firearms" and are treated like regular handguns because they are not readily concealable (over 26" long), and they were originally built or rebuilt from pistol gripped smoothbore firearms...


Parenthesis above is my addition, & bold font is my emphasis.

I understand that ATF's position is that if the above PGO (virgin receiver or factory build) sub-18" barrel firearm is actually "concealed on the person" then it situationally becomes AOW as a consequence of such concealment & is NFA.

So, provided it is not "concealed on the person", it is subject to GCA, not NFA. Correct?


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:11 pm 
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Charlie_B wrote:
...it's the CLEO that's getting the shaft on the deal with this rule revision? ...


Perhaps a better way to state it is that if the rule is adopted then is the local CLEO won't be able to obstruct the ATF approval.

Another way to look at this, & probably the more important one from a regulatory perspective, is that a background check will be required of the corporate/trust representative, to eliminate a so-called "loophole".


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:35 pm 
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I know a guy through my work whom had registered a few of his AR lowers in the past so he could buy shorter barreled uppers for them. Fortunately the county sheriff at the time was willing to sign off on his paperwork but sadly the current sitting sheriff of Bexar county Texas recently told him she will absolutely will not sign off on anything NFA. Her reason was she didn't think folks needed this type of stuff? He had talked about having a gun trust drawn up so I'll have to ask him if he is aware of this new development with eliminating the sign off from a chief of police or a sheriff.

This is the kinda of guy that I can see getting that trust drawn up, getting the can finally he has been talking about forever and calling this woman up to say "Hey (explicitive if he could get away with it) thanks for nothing. I found a way without your help so there" because that is just how he is. :D She will hate a revision change in the rules like that for sure. Yes, she is more of a politician than anything else. Doesn't even have a LEO background at all. I sure as hell didn't vote for her but enough folks unfortunately did :( But thats another discussion for somewhere else.

I do have one question. So if a gun like the Serbu super short shotguns are considered AOW already you simply apply and get approved to transfer it as an AOW and it has to stay that way? Even though its already a part of the NFA process to purchase/own its not really considered a short barreled shotgun unless you tried to put a stock on it? Then if you hadn't gone through the same process again (spending more too this time) and got approved that would put you in some deep poo?

What if someone put something like the Knoxx breacher grip on a super shorty? It does not have a proper shoulder stock. Would they still consider it AOW being altered from the factory configuration or would one wind up with a nice stay in club fed? I'm just curious about it. I have no intention of ever owning something like the super shorty although if the tax is only $5 on it instead of $200 I can see the appeal for some folks to simply have one and another stamp in their collection. I just find it fascinating some of the stupid ways these laws seem counter productive. Installing a stock on certain guns for ease of hitting your target better makes it more evil but ironically not having it makes the gun harder to control thus your chances of missing increase and the collateral damage that might go along with it. All because of a certain barrel length.

Crazy is what I call it. YMMV.


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:57 pm 
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On a Serbu Super Shorty AOW you can swap the pistol grip with another pistol grip, change the fore-end, change the barrel length, but if you add a shoulder stock it becomes a short barreled shotgun.

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:00 am 
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On a Serbu Super Shorty AOW you can swap the pistol grip with another pistol grip, change the fore-end, change the barrel length, but if you add a shoulder stock it becomes a short barreled shotgun.

Banshee,

If I may add a clarification, you can add a shoulder stock and a 18" barrel to an AOW an utilize it as a shoulder fired weapon, what you have is an AOW reconfigured as a Shoulder fired weapon and change back and forth with out issue. Similar to the Thompson Center can be configured as a pistol or a carbine.

Of course if you add a shoulder stock only with a short barrel with out re-registering the weapon as an SBS, a felony conviction will really ruin your day.

Then there is the scary issues of "constructive possession" to ruin the rest of you day.




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