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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:50 am 
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In the no good deed goes just got in a Remington 870 Express Tactical Pistol Grip Only 12Ga Pump 18.5in Barrel to use a base for an AOW.

I checked with my local ATF office and they confirmed that the requirement for unique serial numbers and manufactures name can be met requesting to re-use the Remington Factory engraving and serial number when you apply to make an AOW.

I have a local SOT who can handle the paper work and transfer the AOW back to me for $5.00 plus a fee for thier time to avoid my paying the $200 making tax.

I have been able to cut down the Magpul SGA forend similar to your trap style forend to clear the receiver similar to what you did with your trap stock.

I don't have the skill or equipment to hand cut 1" square threads on the shortened magazine tube.

What are your thoughts about using a 1" UNF, 8UN or UNC thread mill/tap and threading die to cut thread the mag tube and to make a custom cap per the specifications below:

Fine Thread Series – UNF
Nominal Size and Threads Per In., 1-12
Basic Pitch Dia. inch 0.9459
Section at Minor Dia. Square in. 0.625
Tensile Stress Area Sqaure in. 0.663

8-Thread Series - 8UN
Nominal Size and Threads Per In., 1-8
Basic Pitch Dia. inch 0.9188
Section at Minor Dia. Square in. 0.551
Tensile Stress Area Sqaure in. 0.606

Coarse Thread Series – UNC
Nominal Size and Threads Per In., 1-8
Basic Pitch Dia. inch 0.9188
Section at Minor Dia. Square in. 0.551
Tensile Stress Area Sqaure in. 0.606

Any input is appreciated.




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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:55 am 
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Sorry about taking so long to answer. My laptop monitor died two months ago and still haven't found a replacement. I am using my phone now so bare with me.

The ID on the 870 mag tube is .925 Any thread you use must have a minor dia larger than .925 or you will cut through the tube. The square thread Remington uses is a 1-12 b@$t@rd thread with minor dia of .965. The only "v" threads that would work are fine threads.

A 1-8 has min dia of .844. This is smaller than the I'd of the tube.
A 1-28 has a min dia of .950 and a 1-32 is .960.

These two would work, but that fine of a thread is easy to cross thread.

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Considering this involves Form 1, I figured this may be of interest to those viewing this thread.

Federal Register Notice

ATF requests public comments on firearm application form

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:08 pm 
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I am planning to build an SBS, Mine will be a side by side 12 guage.I live in Tombstone Az about a stones throw from the Mex border, I won't have any problems with our CLEO here, He is a reasonable man! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:55 am 
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Sounds like a neat project, Southern Cross. Maybe post pics when you can. :)

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:40 pm 
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I have been wanting to do a sxs in 10ga.

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:43 pm 
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Banshee wrote:
I have been wanting to do a sxs in 10ga.


Now that sounds like a fun gun. :D

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:24 pm 
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I want to form a trust and build a sbr 9mm AR, a sbs also interests me is it the same 5320 and trust would be condidered a cooperation?

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:51 am 
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I just thought I'd add this to the thread as it may be of interest. There is a proposed rule change for those going the Trust route. Article here, proposed rule here, text of said below:

Title: Background Checks for Principal Officers of Corporations, Trusts, and Other Legal Entities With Respect to the Making or Transferring of a National Firearms Act Firearm
Abstract: The Department of Justice is proposing to amend the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. The proposed regulations would (1) add a definition for the term "responsible person"; (2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints; (3) require that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located; and (4) eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:09 pm 
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There was an article in today's Wall Street Journal titled: "Silencers Loophole Targeted for Closure" that focused on Trusts. The article discussed NFA weapons in general and what caught my eye was this paragraph:

The ATF's proposal says "responsible persons" of a trust seeking to purchase a silencer or other weapons covered by the National Firearms Act would have to submit fingerprints and a photo to the federal government, pass a criminal-background check and get local law-enforcement approval. Even absent background checks and the law-enforcement sign-off, dealers say it takes the ATF from two to nine months to process the paperwork.

This is in contrast to the prior post that suggested that the CLEO approval would be eliminated, which I hope is still the case!


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:32 pm 
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I am planning on eForming a SxS shotgun very soon; probably tomorrow or next week. I do have a question concerning an interstate aspect to the project:

After my electronic Form 1 is approved, I would like to send either the shotgun or the barrel group to a gunsmith in another state for the engraving, shortening and rebeading. If I send the whole gun, I believe I have to file a Form 5. Is that correct? If I only send the part (barrels), but not the receiver, do I still need to do the Form 5 business? I'm not clear from the ATF site, but that part by itself is not a "firearm", at least as I understand it.

The gunsmith said he could do the work either way as long as the barrel was properly marked and it will save a little in shipping costs. I am planning on having the engraving done on the barrel either way, but I, naturally, wish to be in compliance with the law.

Thank you for any details, links, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:18 am 
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Plain wrote:
I am planning on eForming a SxS shotgun very soon; probably tomorrow or next week. I do have a question concerning an interstate aspect to the project:

After my electronic Form 1 is approved, I would like to send either the shotgun or the barrel group to a gunsmith in another state for the engraving, shortening and rebeading. If I send the whole gun, I believe I have to file a Form 5. Is that correct? If I only send the part (barrels), but not the receiver, do I still need to do the Form 5 business? I'm not clear from the ATF site, but that part by itself is not a "firearm", at least as I understand it.

The gunsmith said he could do the work either way as long as the barrel was properly marked and it will save a little in shipping costs. I am planning on having the engraving done on the barrel either way, but I, naturally, wish to be in compliance with the law.

Thank you for any details, links, etc.



You don't HAVE use the form 5320.20 for a complete firearm if you don't want to. The ATF
RECOMMENDS that you do. Here is what the ATF says.

"Section 9.5 Conveyances of NFA firearms not treated as “transfers” under the NFA
9.5.1 Repair of firearms. ATF does not consider the temporary conveyance of an NFA
firearm to an FFL for repair to be a “transfer” under the NFA. Thus, a transfer
application is not required to convey the firearm for repair or to return the repaired
firearm to its owner/possessor. Nevertheless, in order to avoid any appearance that a
“transfer” has taken place, ATF recommends that a Form 5 application be submitted for
approval prior to conveying the firearm for repair. It is also recommended that the FFL
making repairs obtain an approved Form 5 to return a repaired firearm. If Forms 5 are
not used to convey a firearm for repair or return the repaired firearm to the owner, the
parties should maintain documentation showing that the conveyance was for purposes of
repair, identifying the firearm, and showing the anticipated time for repair. Approved
Forms 5, or the recommended documentation, will show that an unlawful “transfer” did
not take place and that the FFL making the repairs is not in unlawful possession of the
firearm. A non-FFL who proposes to transport a destructive device, machine-gun, or
short-barrel shotgun or rifle interstate to an FFL for repair should first obtain an approved
ATF Form 5320.20 before transporting the firearm."

With that out of the way, I would just send the barrel/barrels, with no form 5320.20. Barrels are parts, not firearms. It will be cheaper, MUCH,MUCH easier and faster. If you go the form 5320.20 route it will add months to getting the barrels to the gunsmith and back to you. Pack the barrel/barrels with a copy of the approved form 1, letter telling what is to be done to the barrels and ship.

Technically you need to cut the barrel/barrels off. You are the maker not the gunsmith. I would saw the barrel/barrels off about an inch longer than the desired length and let the gunsmith trim them back to the desired length. It would cheaper to ship,easier to find a box and less likely to get damaged in shipping.

I also prefer to mark my shotgun barrels . :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:30 pm 
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Thank you Banshee. The information is appreciated. I hear you about the form wait times, they were/are crazy long in recent memory.

I wasn't aware I had to cut the barrels myself as I thought "making" the SBS was the act of mating the short barrels to the receiver. Sort of like how some owners of an Armalite rifle file a Form 1 and then buy a short barrel once approved. But if I do, no problem as I have to tools to do so. For the matter, I could handle the metal work part of this project on my own, but it won't look nearly as good as it being professionally done. The engraving, however, is something I'll need a third party to do, so I figured why not have it all done in one trip.

Thanks again.

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:25 pm 
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I just did a little research on the barrel cutting, it appears I was wrong on you having to cut them. I thought I read this once before in the ATF FAQs, but must have gotten it confused with something else. Sorry about that.

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:43 pm 
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No worries and thanks for the updated info. Much appreciated. :)

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:09 am 
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I just thought it prudent to mention that several states, my state of Washington included, have outlawed short barreled shotguns and short barreled rifles by state statute. You might want to check your state laws before you get excited.

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:27 pm 
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What about a non nfa shotgun. These are legal without the paperwork.


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:44 pm 
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DOGMANN wrote:
What about a non nfa shotgun. These are legal without the paperwork.


Sure, As long as the barrel is greater than 18" and the OAL is greater than 26", it is not NFA and legal in most states. Twenty-six inches can be pretty handy. But, for a little bit of paper work, and two hundred dollars, you can go as short as you want. Considering how very little two hundred dollars buys these days coupled with the paperwork being very simple when compared to other task (e.g., annual tax filings, buying land, etc.), it isn't a particularly onerous project. A Trust, which is the route I went, made things even easier.

But, too each their own. :)

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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:12 pm 
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A non nfa shotgun is a 14'inch barrel with a shockwave grip


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 Post subject: Re: How to legally build a Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:28 pm 
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DOGMANN wrote:
A non nfa shotgun is a 14'inch barrel with a shockwave grip


Ah, yes, there is that one that is over 26" with OAL and 14" barrel. AFAIK, it is an "Other", so it does not need NFA registration. It cannot ever have a shoulder stock though. Some states may still view it as a SBS too.

It has been bandied about on the forum and elsewhere. Personally, I'd rather just pay the $200 or $5 tax and call it good. But, to each their own.



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