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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:59 am 
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Sure. Its a common marketing practice, diminishing the quality to keep the price stable. But their customer's problem is that they are too stoopid to read the label, they just read the logo.

If it don't say the density on the box it is kind of like buying gold. If it says 24k on it you know gold is the content. If it don't have a hallmark, gold might just be the color.

Caveat emptor.



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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:02 am 
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The products I have seen from Hevi shot are standard steel rounds, Duplex loads and Hevi shot loads.
Speedball is a duplex using a base of Hevi shot on the bottom and steel up front. Another one sues a few heavier tungsten pellets on top and steel on the bottom and then there is the very high priced Hevi shot loads. These are running 4.50 per shot in smaller bores. You don't even get a kiss when you buy these.
I have used Bismuth and ITX which are excellent products and weigh in at about 10 GCC. At first I could get Bismuth 12 ga shells on sale and take out the shot to load may smaller bores. Now have some in the 28 from Kent. Kent sells Bismuth in standard length shells and they run from about $1.60 to a little over $2,00 per bang. Mostly I use the expensive stuff on pheasant when I hunt WPA's. Sometimes on ducks. They work well and give the smaller bore an edge as you can increase the shot load to 1 1/8 oz in the 16 and 20 3". I have used the 12 with steel a lot and don't get too excited about spending a of of money on ammo to improve over the steel loads.
There are a few of us that have used the old 3" 12 ga 1 1/4 loads in 3's or 2's with good results and are not too impressed with the new developments in extra velocity and all that.
As to Black Cloud, BC Scatter loads and Blindside. Look at what they are designed for and not for extra range. Blindside makes an excellent scatter load for closer range shooting as steel tends to have high center densities on the pattern. So does the BC scatter load. BC itself does somewhat what they claim, it sweetens the outer ring of the 30 inch circle. I patterned the BC at 40 yards and 50 yards. At 40 I actually got a slightly higher pellet count than with the standard loads. At 50 the standard round steel out shined it. The BC did put more pellets in the fringes at 40 yards. This was with a Mod choke out of an old 835 Mossberg. Whether they are worth the extra cost is individual. I like them for the first shot and then use the back up shells in standard steel. A looser constriction will not match the scatter loads. I use Blindside in my 20 3" when I jump shoot ducks and may encounter a grouse on the way in. I often change when close to the ponds. I keep one scatter load in the chamber and then just switch it out.
At least these shells are available at under $20 per 25 shells. Steel works fine at 40-45 yards. After that you need tighter chokes and maybe higher density shot. My experiences are that when I load tight chokes for long range I miss and cripple more at the normal ranges.

DP


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:05 am 
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Location: Kansas, Land of Oz
Trying to keep all the Hevi-Shot® products straight can be a never-ending task. Here's how I see it presently:

Hevi-Steel: ordinary steel shot
Hevi-Metal: mixture of ordinary steel shot and Hevi-Shot of constantly-changing density, depending on the price of tungsten on the world market
SpeedBall: mixture of ordinary steel shot and Hevi-Shot of constantly-changing density, depending on the price of tungsten on the world market... with a polymer ball added
Hevi-Shot Duck/Hevi-Shot Goose: Hevi-Shot of constantly-changing density, depending on the price of tungsten on the world market

Does that sound about right?


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:34 pm 
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mudpack wrote:
Does that sound about right?


Hevi-Shot is, as far as I'm concerned, a fabulously dishonest P.T. Barnum enterprise that while they were originally founded on the basis of density (an important factor) . . .

now, does just about everything possible to avoid talking about it. They are pathetic.

I did have a candid conversation with the folks of Hevi-Shot recently. I asked why they published such truly stupid, bizarre nonsense. The answer was, "Well, Randy . . . look, we have to say something." At least he was honest.

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:18 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:03 pm
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Regular steel works fine for most waterfowl applications. No reason so spend the money on the gimmicks of Blindside/Black Cloud or the recoil of Hypersonic when Red/Blue box Federals, Fiocchis, Kents, SuperX or Nitro Steel are all great shells and in #4-BB's will kill ducks/geese farther than most guys can hit them.

Bismuth for the old guns.

Bucks Run HW13 or TSS to role your own for sub-gauges .

Guys think about this stuff shell/choke stuff too much and should spend more time scouting or sitting still when birds are working.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:26 pm 
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elvez wrote:
Regular steel works fine for most waterfowl applications.


Try telling that to the Hevi Kool-aid drinking Prostaff, it must suck trying to sell the crap on every forum out there when the company won't be honest with the people you are trying to convert. It's sad really, they are locked in because they get "free" product, have to defend the lies, and make up ridiculous claims in hopes that the people reading are not privy to the deceptive practices of the Company.

The best Hevi was what was loaded by Remington.

I do have some in 28ga that is the real deal, but when it is gone, I will be loading TSS.

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:18 am 
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Their products suck. I bought 2 boxes of hevisteel. The jammed really bad with ftf and fte problems not to mention one in five loads didn't even go off. Bad primers. The jamming was from unsized brass. You could actually see the brass was bigger than the plastic hull. The brass would hit the extractor ramp on the mouth of the chamber and peel the brass back like a can opener and not fully chamber or if it did chamber it wouldn't extract. Complete and total junk! I tried their turkey loads before that and all the buffer poured out of them. Bad crimps. Last straw. Done. Garbage. Period...

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
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Location: ADAMS RUN, S.C.
O.K., I guess they say somewhere but it seems to be very conveniently less than obvious & apparent. Hevi Shot is playing games with more than shot density. Where do they tell you how many shells are in a box or in a case? (in the on-line ads, not looking at the actual box) They are not the only ones playing, I have problems with how many shells are in a box of Tungsten Matrix & Bismuth also.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:07 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:56 pm
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lossking wrote:
The Hevi-Shot Duck is about 10g/cc, just under lead at 11g/cc. I've used them for ducks in a Japanese A5 Light Twelve and they kill ducks good. If you want 12g/cc, you'll have to buy Hevi-Shot Goose but it costs more. There's no point in spending the extra jack just for ducks.



I have used both Hevishot Duck and Goose and have never been more impressed
with a shotgun load. The stuff kills ducks GRAVEYARD DEAD. I have never been
a fan of Black Cloud.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:29 pm 
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T-roy 120 wrote:
Their products suck. Complete and total junk! I tried their turkey loads before that and all the buffer poured out of them. Bad crimps. Last straw. Done. Garbage. Period...


A truly horrible company, extremely poor product, with a generous helping of delusional bull and overpriced, yet substandard product.

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:56 pm
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RandyWakeman wrote:
T-roy 120 wrote:
Their products suck. Complete and total junk! I tried their turkey loads before that and all the buffer poured out of them. Bad crimps. Last straw. Done. Garbage. Period...


A truly horrible company, extremely poor product, with a generous helping of delusional bull and overpriced, yet substandard product.


That is not even remotely accurate information. I am assuming
you are talking about EMI. My entire club uses nothing but
Hevishot or Hevimetal and as far as I know never experienced
a single issue with them. I think it is extremely "sketchy" to
make blanket statements about a product that you do not
prefer and/or use. I am an avid golfer and prefer Titleist
woods and Cobra irons but that does not mean I consider
Taylor Made to be a substandard company in any regard


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:07 pm 
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pheasantsforever wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:

A truly horrible company, extremely poor product, with a generous helping of delusional bull and overpriced, yet substandard product.


That is not even remotely accurate information.


Sure it is. Who are you, do you have a name? You forgot to introduce yourself.

Hevi-Shot Fires Back!

Randy,

I just read your blog entitled, “The No Tox Shotshell Problem”. I would like to comment in two capacities, first as a hunter and second as the lead customer service and Hunter Service Specialist as well as Pro Staff Director for Hevi Shot.

First, I find some of your information informative, but your non tox blog was severely undermined by your lack of accurate details, and frankly lack of information, period. As I mentioned, I am a fanatical wing shooter and hunter. Goose hunting is my passion and I often hunt 3-5 days a week during our waterfowl season. I notice your blog attempts to use a very common ballistic calculator to sell you view on non toxic shot shells, but again you leave out vital information important to any serious wing shooter…PERFORMANCE being the most important. I have been successfully using Hevi Shot for some time now and its performance is unmatched in the industry today. That is without question. There are thousands of satisfied customers in North America that will attest to its UNMATCHED bird “thumping” power.

I notice you mention “not so heavy Hevi Shot”…First of all ‘heavy’ is an incorrect term, as the important factor is Density which is calculated as Mass (g) divided by volume (cc). This provides you with true density. I can tell you with 100% certainty that both Hevi Shot Duck AND Hevi Shot Goose are made from identical pellets, both being 12 g/cc…that is ~1.2 g/cc MORE DENSE than most lead. For about 18 months during the mid-2000’s, Hevi Shot experimented with differentiating duck loads by density and pellet count with good field success. Our consumers, however, made it clear they preferred the 12g/cc pellets and Hevi Shot Duck and Goose pellets been 12g/cc since 2008.

I have been fortunate enough to be able to kill several different duck and goose species/subspecies using Hevi Shot and nothing I have shot has come close to the killing power of Hevi Shot whether at close ranges OR extreme. In my opinion, and that of many others, Hevi Shot is the solution to using non lead shot. Now, in order for you to see these advantages you must first shoot Hevi Shot, something I would guess you have not done after reading your blog. There are many other factors that determine success in shooting Hevi Shot or any type of ammo. Our shells are engineered to provided some of the best patterns in shot shells today. This accurately partnered with a good choke system stacks the odds in your favor when birds are on the wing. You must still be an accurate shot and hit birds in order to be successful. Hevi Shot is not a miracle shell that simply requires you to point at the sky and have birds rain down…a point missed by many nay sayers of Hevi Shot. Hevi Shot Hevi 13 Turkey loads have won consecutive championships at the NWTF Turkey shoot and has held the World record for patterning for some 10 years running. Point in Fact is that Hevi Shot is perhaps the greatest innovation to wing shooting since the development of the cartridge roughly 200 years ago.
I would also like to point out that the introduction of the new Hevi Metal loads challenges your argument of price point. These shells compete directly with the so called “premium” steel loads by those other shotshell manufacturers. Hevi Metal is a highly engineered ‘blended’ load which combines both steel AND Hevi Shot pellets. It combines two alloys, Hevi Shot (tungsten, nickel, iron) and steel. It also blends shot sizes. This is engineered to accurately match the ballistic characteristics of the larger steel and smaller Hevi Shot pellets while having the added benefit of having 20% more pellets in the shell and on target than a standard steel shell. This shell produces phenomenal pattern density out to 40 yrds and the addition of the dense Hevi Shot pellets add serious lethality and bird thumping power.

In conclusion, I would ask that you honestly evaluate Hevi Shot while focusing on performance and the end result which is MORE DEAD BIRDS…MORE CLEAN KILLS…LESS SHELLS SHOT.


Thank you for your support and business!
Regards,

Sean Litrakis

Customer Service
Pro Staff Director
HEVI-Shot


Well, Sean, I can hardly blame you for having a bit of hysterically biased bluster; some of this is quite understandable coming from a person who is “Pro Staff Director," I suppose. As far as your complaint that “heavy” is an incorrect term, it is the Hevi-Shot product line itself that has shouted “heavier than lead” the longest and the loudest, though it takes very little rational thought to understand that a pound of lead, a pound of steel, a pound of feathers, and a pound of any of the versions of Hevi-Shot weigh about the same. The actual density of the shot material isn't at all obvious from marketing materials or looking at the box, to be sure. Hevi-Shot isn't alone in this regard.

"What Chokes are recommended for the various loads?
Since HEVI-SHOT® is "heavier than lead"®, it patterns very tightly. For the turkey loads a full choke is OK. This is because the loads are fully buffered. We have use from a 665 and up. For waterfowl we recommend an improved cylinder over decoys, and modified choke for pass shooting. You may find that you need less choke (or even no choke) with HEVI-SHOT®."

Above, as long published by Hevi-Shot on their FAQ's and a registered trademark of Hevi-Shot, "heavier than lead"®. . . Hevi-Shot now complains that "‘heavy’ is an incorrect term." Now, just where would anyone get the idea that Hevi-Shot is really "heavier than lead"®? Go figure.

As to Hevi-Shot Duck and Goose being the same, that doesn't fit well with data supplied by Hevi-Shot. Hevi-Shot Duck #4 was claimed to be 153 pellets per ounce as opposed to the 125 pellets per ounce of Hevi-Shot Goose. Lyman publishes 135 pellets per ounce for #4 lead. Based on the information supplied by Hevi-Shot directly, Hevi-Shot Duck is less dense than lead and Hevi-Shot Duck and Hevi-Shot Goose are not at all the same density.

If your interest is publishing density of your loads, no one could tell it by referring to your website, where actual density of any of your 12 gauge waterfowl loads is never mentioned. To buy into your theory that Hevi-Shot Duck and Hevi-Shot Goose are the same, one would have to ignore your own product descriptions. Hevi-Shot Duck load #43006 is 1-3/8 oz. of #6 at 1450 fps. Hevi-Shot Goose load #43106 is 1-3/8 oz. of #6 at 1350 fps. Is it the stance of Hevi-Shot to use less muzzle velocity on a goose than a duck with now theoretically identical density shot? What would anyone pay more money for a slower Hevi-Shot Goose load than for a faster Hevi-Shot Duck load with identical payloads? Your assertion that I've not used Hevi-Shot loads is completely wrong. Sean, you should read a lot more before you make wrong-headed assumptions.

As to your claim that your shells are engineered to provide great patterns, Sean, believe it or not most premium shotshells hopefully do give good patterns. Most everyone claims it and no one I know engineers shotshells to perform badly. As to your “Point in Fact is that Hevi Shot is perhaps the greatest innovation to wing shooting since the development of the cartridge roughly 200 years ago,” you really need to get a grip. I'd suggest that the development of the choke by Fred Kimble close to forty years later in 1868 is far more important to wing-shooting, as is the interchangeable screw-choke introduced in 1959 by Olin-Winchester. It may be a "point," but it is a very weak one and is as far from a fact as can exist. I'd suggest that the invention of smokeless powder in 1884 by Paul Vieille and the development of smokeless powder that followed means far more to the wingshooter than Hevi-Shot. I would also suggest that you consider that John M. Browning's contributions to wing-shooting, the world's first successful pump shotgun, the first autoloading shotgun, and the world's first successful vertical double shotgun just might exceed those you'd like to attribute to Hevi-Shot. Sean, while a little over-enthusiasm is to be expected, it doesn't make any sense to completely ignore the contributions of Fred Kimble, Paul Vieille, Olin-Winchester, and John M. Browning for the sake of your shotgun shells.

I'm all for truth in advertising when it comes to shot material density. If Hevi-Shot is doing anything in this regard, I've missed it. Federal Heavyweight shot is 15 g/cc, 25% more dense then Hevi-Shot Goose. It is hardly even-handed to claim that density is just important for one company, when Winchester HD and Federal Heavyweight both have greater density than lead. I appreciate a lecture about how to kill a bird just as much as anyone, even if it comes over forty-five years too late. If you don't know how to kill a turkey with Federal Heavyweight, a duck with Winchester HD, or a pheasant with Kent Tungsten-Matrix you really need to get more experience. Certainly “performance” is important, but just typing it in capital letters redundantly does not change physics, wounding ballistics, or my patterning board. The most common thing available with “UNMATCHED THUMPING POWER” is often just the delirious chest-thumping created by apparently intoxicated marketing departments.

I've never accused any ammunition manufacturer of getting things right 100% of the time, not Federal, not Fiocchi, not Kent, not Remington, not Winchester. So far, no one has let me down. If all manufacturers could be counted on to completely and accurately describe their products, warts and all, there wouldn't be any point of having gunwriters. Thanks to letters such as yours, I can take comfort knowing that I'll not be out of work anytime soon.

Since it was the “The No Tox Shotshell Problem” article that you are referring to, you seem to have misread it. There has not been an approved for waterfowl shot material on the market that is safe for older barrels, offers lead-like performance, is available in bulk for handloading, and can be handloaded using “for lead” shot charge bars, “for lead” wads, using both readily available propellants and components. A no-tox shot material that the hunting enthusiast can use with many of his favorite Green Dot, Herco, or Unique recipes and go duck hunting, goose hunting, or perhaps pheasant hunting where dictated by regulations. Hevi-Shot has never provided any solution to this problem and this is the problem that Nice Shot seeks to solve.

--Randy Wakeman



Copyright 2010, 2017 by Randy Wakeman. All Rights Reserved.

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Several of the waterfowling websites are overrun with unabashed shills, apparently on the tit & feverishly pimping EMI 24/7. The freebies appear to have a direct correlation to post count promoting product w/o any evidence forthcoming to validate the claims. However, for their competition it may well be a clinical case study of what not to do, marketing wise, although even some of the others also seem bent upon selling "elixirs" at every twist and turn.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:48 am 
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Yuchi wrote:
Several of the waterfowling websites are overrun with unabashed shills, apparently on the tit & feverishly pimping EMI 24/7. The freebies appear to have a direct correlation to post count promoting product w/o any evidence forthcoming to validate the claims. However, for their competition it may well be a clinical case study of what not to do, marketing wise, although even some of the others also seem bent upon selling "elixirs" at every twist and turn.
Try some Hevi whatever with a supertiteum choke and you will see results :D

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:31 am 
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All I know is, I kill ducks good, real good, with 3" Hevi-Metal #3 through a Kick's High Flyer modified choke. I do use other loads occasionally, but prefer the Hevi-Metal #3. Your mileage may vary.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:12 am 
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I also use Hevi Shot duck and goose and have had good results with both loads. I don't stretch the zones past 45yards much but they perform well. I don't see the "blowing the feathers" results others do but in my opinion they are better than steel with cripples and work much better on big birds than a lot of other loads. When I hit a Canada or Speck they do put them down with some authority. That being said that is using the goose (blue box) load. Overpriced, but hell I paid way too much for just about aspect of duck hunting.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:12 pm 
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My fuel bill from opening day until the close, exceeds my ammo bill. The lease cost, repairing blinds, ect greatly exceed that. Ammo is the least expensive part of my season, but I'm down to my last 2 cases of the Remington HD. I tried a flat of the Hevi Metal #2 and had good results on decoying birds and even a few that were beyond. Is it better than a quality steel only load? I doubt it, but it worked fine for what I used it for. I don't have regular access to a good timber hole, mostly shallow flats. Generally its a mixed bag of Mallard and Gadwall with Specs and Honkers as the season rolls on. Yardage ranges from back peddle over the spread to cirlcle/circle.

I have used the Hevi Shot Goose #4 for late season Duck/Goose combo and that worked fine as well. I shoot a standard Beretta 391 Sporter with either .020 or .025 constriction. I also shoot 50-60 flats throughout the Summer and Fall at Sporting/Fitasc Competitions as practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:46 pm 
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A quality 1 1/8 ounces of #2 steel at 1550fps are as deadly as anyone needs to get. I have flattened 23 species of duck, 4 species of geese and a double handful of tundra swans with this load from several manufacturers. I'm for want of nothing else.

When I shoot older guns I have a strong preference for Kent Tungsten Impact. The several versions of Bismuth I've shot pale in comparison to Impact loads and high-speed steel. I could make do with 12 gauge bismuth loads but would hate to have to kill ducks with smaller gauge bismuth.

I am nobody's prostaffer.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:01 am 
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While I havent killed the multitudes of ducks and geese you have. I have bagged everything the state of Louisiana allows me to and then it's all shoved into a huge gumbo of sorts mostly. I do hunt much more than every weekend of season and have for the last 30 years all over the rice fields and marshes.. that being said, "all anyone needs" should be changed to all you need. I have hunted in really bad storms and all kinds of weird a$$ weather..and I have seen tungsten loads of Hevi Shot, Wingmaster HD, xtended range and others perform much better than steel. On a basic day, decoyed bird coming in, steel will do most of the time. Tungsten loads, shot for shot simply perform better than steel, for me for all aspects of waterfowl hunting, this is, of course just my opinion. Your results will probably vary.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi Shot Duck loads are actually Hevi-Steel.....wtf???
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:25 am 
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You nailed it, moose. There's no doubt that the tungsten based loads kill ducks and geese better than steel, especially at long range. The stuff is so expensive, though, that I mostly use the Hevi-Metal mix of hevi-shot and steel or straight steel. They work well, too.




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