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 Post subject: Re: 28 gauge non toxic question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:15 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:08 am
Posts: 1872
If I want to buy turkey ammo for pheasant the 12 ga uses 1 1/2 oz so is still superior. I like the 12 for heavier shot uses because it patterns better with the simple loads. Like I say I have lots of reloading stuff. "just buffering" is an absolute PITA but if I were to do it with a 12 and 1 1/4 oz it would still out pattern the 3" 20. I have an old Lyman manual where Roster gives techniques for buffering and shows his 100% patterns with a 1 1/4 oz 12 load and a plain old Remington 870 and factory choke. Lead 3" 20 will not match them. No-tox 3" 20 ga loads are not so good unles you use very expensive tungsten shot. With a 12 steel works just fine at $12 a box or so ammo. Never needed anything else. There are lighter weight 12's available.
Now the OP is looking at a no-tox load for the 28 that can be used on pheasant. As much of my hunting has required no-tox for pheasant I have shot a lot of them with steel. The Bismuth loads have permitted me to use the 16 with 1 1/8 oz as well as ITX. There are loads with Bismuth, as others mention for the 28. I have one that seems to work for the 28 that resembles the Kent load but the Kent load is as cheap fully loaded as using the Bismuth I have. They make a decent no-tox load affordable with a usable pay load. The 5/8 oz steel load for the 28 gets pretty anemic. The Kent Bismuth also comes in 2 3/4 20 ga and 16 but they chintz on the 16 and only load it with 1 oz of shot. The 20 & 16 also are available with #5. These Kent loads are generally pretty great for small bore shooters and quite a bit more affordable than their tungsten matrix.

DP




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 Post subject: Re: 28 gauge non toxic question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:05 pm 
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Spin1 wrote:
Since it is new (I think), I doubt many will have experience in the field yet, but does anyone have opinions on Kent's Bismuth #6 shot for pheasant? This will be coming out of a 28 gauge.


Spin1 wrote:
I usually hunt pheasant with 12 gauge but have an itch to try 28 gauge. I like semi's but can't afford any of the 28s so looking at a pump. Brownings seem to fit me better. The bps weighs the same as the 12 I currently use. A lighter gun would be nice so I am torn between the bps or the 870 which I believe is lighter. I shot a friends BPS successfully but I did think it heavy. I can get a BPS for $100 cheaper than a Wingmaster and even the BPS medallion is cheaper by $55 or so. Thoughts?


Spin1, to get straight to the point: a 28 gauge using no-tox for pheasant is a very poor choice, a choice that gets far worse if the idea is stay on a low budget. There is nothing cheap about 28 gauge ammo and nothing wonderfully good about it.

In terms of cost per shot, in terms of effectiveness, the 28 gauge with steel or bismuth is a real loser compared to what you already have been using: #3 steel out of a 12 gauge.

You like semi's, but you don't want to spend a lot of money. Whether you throw money at ammo or into the gun, it all goes somewhere.

Image

This Weatherby SA-08 weighs 6-1/2 lbs. on the nose. At the range, the SA-08 handled Federal Top Gun 1 oz. 1180 fps loads perfectly right out of the box with no break in whatsoever. The were no failures to feed or eject in the first session consisting of 250 rounds. Despite the SA-08's light 6.5 weight, recoil was mild and this gun is substantially more pleasurable to shoot with 1 oz. and 1-1/8 oz. loads than several 6.5 – 7 lb. guns shot right along side of it.

It is one of the lightest gas-operated self-loading 12 gauges on the market, making it appropriate for dove, pheasant, and casual clays. As a dedicated clays gun, you may well wish to consider a heavier model. As a fun to carry gun, it is hard to beat gaining just one half pound over its six pound little brother, the previously reviewed SA-08 Deluxe 20 gauge.

It is good half pound lighter than the Franchi Affinity 12 gauge, Browning Maxus, Beretta A300 Outlander wood model, and even a clean quarter pound lighter than the Winchester SX3 Black Field. The Weatherby SA-08 Deluxe walnut is both better-looking and less costly than all of them, with the synthetic version going for less money yet at $450 - $475 or so street price.

An SA-08 12 gauge is a 1/2 pound lighter than a BPS 28 gauge, and softer shooting, and cheaper to shoot, and more fun to carry, etc., etc., and costs less money. It is a far better pheasant gun by any possible method of comparison.

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 Post subject: Re: 28 gauge non toxic question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:42 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:08 am
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After years of playing around with different guns/gauges which basically is what I enjoyed, now that I am retired I can say that while I like the 16, I could sell off every 16 I own and not really miss them. I retain most of my guns because I have reloading supplies or ammunition for them stock piled. I could quite happily go my way with a couple of 12 gauges. A light one like Randy just recommended and a heavier one for ducks. In the uplands where no-tox is starting to be required more and more, I believe an individual mentioned that Kansas requires no-tox on public lands. MN does not on their state lands and vast state forests but recommend it. WPA's hold pheasant and require no-tox. The 12 permits performance with steel and less cost. To be satisfied with the 16 I have to use ITX or an equivalent in the 3" 20. A $10 box of steel or a good hand load works fine in a 12.
Randy has just recommended a shotgun that may cheat the kids out of more inheritance. While I find 12's a little bulky to carry, 6 1/2 pounds is doable.
Basically most arguments are true concerning the use of expensive no-tox ammo concerning the cost of ammo vs cost of the hunt. But there is this thing called real dollars and I also fish a great deal and hunt deer. Both are also money drains. Steel has gotten so cheap I don't even mess with reloading the stuff except for specialty use. With the current technologies shotguns like the one Randy just recommended give us at least practical alternatives. I had a 16 I liked and put it on a scale. It is 1 pound heavier than that SA. My 20 ga double is 1/2 pound heavier.
I could eat a lot of game if I substituted different shot in trap load recipes. Like 5's for pheasant or 7's for grouse. The 2 3/4 inch steel loads are plenty for pheasant and I have patterned them and found them to be very near the 1 1/4 ounce loads. Never needed the ridiculous hyper velocity 3" shells. I got a lot with a milder 2 3/4 hand load closer to 1300 fps. It patterned better than the factory higher speeds and only gave a 2 pellet difference in the 30 inch circle than the 1 1/4 3"
Shot size and pattern trumps speed.
The English used the 12 as a standard in their expensive game guns. Their formula was that the shot charge should be 1/96th the weight of the gun. 1 1/16 shot in a 6.5 pound double. Of course Jack O'Connor visited the English shotgun makers who would custom fit your shotgun costing about as much as a good car and commented that "you haven't been conned till you've been conned by an Englishman."

DP


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 Post subject: Re: 28 gauge non toxic question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:05 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:46 am
Posts: 69
Spin1 wrote:
Since it is new (I think), I doubt many will have experience in the field yet, but does anyone have opinions on Kent's Bismuth #6 shot for pheasant? This will be coming out of a 28 gauge.

The only other alternative I know of is Hevi-shot classic doubles- but some people have said it is over priced and doesn't pattern well. I don't know. I've seen Rio but not sure if anyone has in stock and I have never used that brand before. I think Rio offers it in #5 and #7 shot.

Bottom line is #6 shot in Bismuth enough to get the job done, or do I need to look for some #5 in Bismuth?


The Classic Doubles is a great shell. I use it out of my older shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: 28 gauge non toxic question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:55 am 
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footballtime wrote:
The Classic Doubles is a great shell. I use it out of my older shotguns.


It is one of the worst-patterning shells out there, truly horrible-- the opposite of "great." All anyone has to do is pattern them: I did.

Density Notes:

Bismuth: 9.6 g/cc

Hevi-Shot Classic Doubles: 9.7 g/cc

Nice Shot: 10.2 - 10.3 g/ cc

Kent TM: 10.8 g/cc

Bismuth is far more spherical, patterns far better, is the same density, and costs less.


Nice Shot:

Image

Hevi-Shot Classic Doubles:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: 28 gauge non toxic question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:53 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:08 am
Posts: 1872
The classic doubles Hevi Shot looks a lot like ITX, but ITX has more of a flat than a ring. It also patterns very well, I get over 65% with a modified choke. They seem to have fixed it now but the early Bismuth was really some bad looking stuff. I has purchased some Bismuth 12 ga shells on sale and pulled the shot. Used it some in BP loads. Some of the early stuff was oblong and varied in size. My canister of 6's is pretty uniform and round like lead shot. Bismuth patterns the most like lead. As I shoot "vintage doubles" I prefer it to other shot.
Image

DP


Last edited by Mnshooter on Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 28 gauge non toxic question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:56 am 
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The latest Kent shells have impressively round and uniform shot.

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--Randy

http://randywakeman.com


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 Post subject: Re: 28 gauge non toxic question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:39 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:08 am
Posts: 1872
Had some Kent Matrix in 16 and 12. They were good shells. They are also a bit spendy. For some of us that is an issue. I hunt deer and fish a lot. I live in an area where people from other states vacation to go fishing. So I have a boat and motor to maintain, rods and reels to maintain and buy line for and tend to get suckered in buying lures. Deer hunting can also get a bit costly as I am addicted to deer rifles and cannot legally shoot 1 deer for rifle I own. Now that I am retired I may even go ice fishing. Recreation dollars tend to start getting spread a little thin

DP


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 Post subject: Re: 28 gauge non toxic question
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:15 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:46 am
Posts: 69
I have had super results using Classic Doubles in the field. I would
not put anything else through my older guns




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