It is currently Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:35 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 101 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:10 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:47 am
Posts: 2737
Location: Dallas, TX
Is there any choke or gun that can shoot a fist sized group at 40 yards? I've never seen one.




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:45 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:18 am
Posts: 22
Elmer Keith said he shot one such gun and what is really odd it is was a Win 97 riot gun, full choke, used by the US Army. I recently heard about another shotgun that would group like that and once again- Win97- I don't know what it is about that model.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:05 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:35 am
Posts: 666
Location: Alabama
DallasCMT wrote:
Is there any choke or gun that can shoot a fist sized group at 40 yards? I've never seen one.


I have - at a measured 40 yards with Dixie Tri-Ball 3" Buckshot from my 12 gauge Remington 870 Express with a Briley .695" extended full choke tube using only the bead on the 26" vent rib barrel for sights. The target, an NRA 50 Yd. slow fire pistol target set up at 40 yards. The bullseye is 8 inches in diameter.

http://www.dixieslugs.com/forum1/viewto ... f84c045002


Last edited by RMc on Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:43 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:18 am
Posts: 22
Once again- just so we are all on the same train of thought- I realize there are now shot cups, etc. that can produce tight patterns at much farther ranges.
What are the practical applications????
1. On self defense at close range I would think a pattern that opened quickly would be good.
2. On buckshot that stays tight to 60-70 yards, once again, if I am in an area where 60-70 yard shots will be the normal, I'd use a rifle or shoot slugs. Even if the pattern is tight I THINK the velocity will be slowing down on buckshot. The reason I say I THINK is because I'm not sure, if the buckshot spreads apart right away then each pellet has air resistance operating on a round shape BUT if the load stays virtually together- then does it act more like a bullet and maintain a higher down range velocity?
3. For hunting, it seems to me the only good application on these long range buckshot loads might be for predator hunting in brush country.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:24 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:52 am
Posts: 5313
I can't claim any hunting experience with buckshot as it has been illegal to use on deer in Minnesota since the early 1970s when I started deer hunting but I have used it to put down car hit deer for a number of years.

My experience with it has been rather poor overall. Penetration has been the greatest issue as one is basically shooting a 32 ACP round at the animal when using 00 buck. If the deer is broadside and close buckshot seems to be an adequate performer but get a bit of an angle (especially angled away) and its performance suffers. That the pellets are round with a large surface area does not help as that limits penetration compared to a more streamlined shape.

As for the questions above, my take on them are thus:

1) a larger pattern can be a help in some instances but a hinderance in others. The problem is where the pellets that miss the target end up. If there is little need to be concerned with collateral damage, then a faster opening pattern may be advantageous on some instances. In others, there is a need to limit the occurrence of stray pellets and for that you will want a tighter pattern at any distance. My preference is for a tight pattern as buckshot seems to work best when there are multiple pellet hits rather than few.

2) Due to the shape of buckshot, i.e. round, it slows down quickly in flight. This happens regardless of the pellets being tightly packed or spread out. In the case of a tightly packed swarm, I can see the front pellets slowing down to air resistance and the rear one due to drag. This would leave the middle pellets relatively unaffected as they are drafting behind the front ones. The only problem is the middle pellets will want to pass the front ones at some point and that may lead to some contact at worse or the normal, general slowing of the pellets due to resistance. In either case, the advantage of a tight pattern is more theoretical than real in relation to ballistic performance. Performance on target would be another matter but not relevant in this context.

3) I find large lead pellets (BB or #2) to be a better choice for predators to the size of coyotes and bobcats than any buckshot. Pattern density is better and they leave holes which are much easier to sew closed. Buckshot may have more energy but they tend to run out of pattern density before the smaller pellets run out of energy.

If mountain lions were a possibility I might have a slight change of opinion but that is something I am not very familiar with. If lions are anything like bobcats or lynx then I would suspect a stout load of lead BB would do fine as ranges tend to be pretty close in the woods. Waiting for the cat run to a point past the gun barrel is not unheard of when cat hunting.

I do run into black bears regularly and would not recommend buckshot for them. I have seen one 160# bear killed with buckshot but it was broadside and the hide had powder burns on it. Yogi did not practice good judgement in raiding a garage and then trying to run over Mr Warden. He did not see any humour in that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:31 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 4078
Location: Louisiana
If you're intent on using buckshot, Dixie Tri-Ball would be the stuff to shoot:

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:48 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:35 am
Posts: 666
Location: Alabama
Funny how all the vituperation in this thread is "aimed" at buckshot use.

Few seem to remember that most states prohibited archery and handgun hunting for deer well into the 1960's due to concerns over inordinate wounding, inadequate range and negative public perception.


Last edited by RMc on Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:51 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:35 am
Posts: 666
Location: Alabama
Does buckshot work?

Indeed so, as the following videos document:

Here is an interesting video of a short range buckshot strike on a Florida buck taken from a tree stand with 20 gauge Federal #2B (18 pellet .27 caliber). Forward to 3.26 on the video, for the takedown. This video also shows the type of close cover that is normal for the coastal South.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvDMN4PlcZA

One of the interesting aspects of buckshot on light big game is the "poleaxed" effect that seems to happen when around 50% or more of the pellets strike the vitals. Here is another video, this time in Virginia, where a doe and a buck are taken from the same blind in just a few minutes. A Remington Express was used with 3" Remington 00B. It is hard to judge the distance, but both deer dropped in their tracks. The hunter obviously waited until the deer were within range. See this at 2:00 and 4:27 in the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY1J1t-SoXk

Here is another example of a deer "dropped in his tracks" with buckshot. The entire pattern impact can be seen at the 2.48 and 6.60 marks. This New Jersey hunt shows hunting over bait which is legal in that state.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmNOBAwOTn8

The previous videos are examples of stand hunters using buckshot. The next involves a traditional dog drive hunt.

Classic example of buckshot use in King George County, Virginia. Forward to 0:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHAdxfMtoPA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:56 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 4078
Location: Louisiana
Wow! I only looked at the last clip and it was impressive. That buck was rolled over like a rabbit.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:02 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:35 am
Posts: 666
Location: Alabama
lossking wrote:
Wow! I only looked at the last clip and it was impressive. That buck was rolled over like a rabbit.


Take a look at the other clips...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:38 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 4078
Location: Louisiana
Most impressive. One thing was evident, within range, broadside shots on deer with buckshot, even 20ga #2 buck, drop them like a sack of potatoes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:09 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:35 am
Posts: 666
Location: Alabama
lossking wrote:
Most impressive. One thing was evident, within range, broadside shots on deer with buckshot, even 20ga #2 buck, drop them like a sack of potatoes.


The key point is within range.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:12 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:18 am
Posts: 22
Thanks for all the great input. That N. FL terrain is exactly what I hunt in. Some comments. As stated the #2 buck dropped the deer. I've had a lot of locals tell me that #1, #00, etc. all work about the same so pick the size of buckshot that patterns best in your shotgun. On the first 3 deer, a 30-30 could have been used instead of a shotgun and buckshot. On the same deer, the one running, if you can hit birds on the wing and rabbits on the run then a shot like that seems to be the situation where buckshot is the best choice. I know years ago there were great "game shots" that could hit a running animal with a rifle but they might have shot at a lot of animals to get that good. Now a days how do you practice with a rifle on running game? You can take a shotgun to a trap or skeet range and learn to hit flying targets but a rifle? I don't know of any training anyone can undertake to learn to shoot a running animal. As I said, I've jumped a lot of deer while walking into a tree stand with a 30-30 but I never shoot because I just don't feel it is ethical- I have done no practice with the 30-30 shooting at a moving object.
I noticed on the last that a dog was moving the deer. On the pattern, you can see the pellets hit on several shots- it looks like the whole load spaced about 10" apart on one shot. That first N. FL deer- I shot its twin in Ocala National Forest- same 8 pts, looks to be the same size. Mine dressed out at 104#. In other words the deer are smaller than they might appear if you live in Maine or NY.
In any event I've seen some other videos where deer are hit and keep running, I doubt all the pellets hit, so big difference when the whole load connects. I am modifying my goals a little. I think a pattern that puts the whole load into a pie plate- keep testing brands and chokes until you find that and you should be good.
And-obviously, in order for the whole load to hit you must be at a close range.
For those with a negative view on buckshot- I hope you realize that buckshot advocates (at least myself) are not claiming it is a "one size fits all" thing. Buckshot is for special situations.
On using buckshot for other animals. Mountain lions are usually treed, so are bears or bears might come into a bait. A rifle ought to work fine. My big "thing" is shooting at a running deer at close range. For that one specific situation it seems buckshot is the best choice.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:02 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:19 pm
Posts: 106
Location: sumter co. fl
Davems wrote:
I'd like members to HONESTLY share their actual experiences with buckshot on deer. My issue is some folks claim one #00 is all that's needed to kill a deer, well I guess if it hits the brain- okay- but the ballistics for one pellet is pretty low. I have other folks tell me if three or more pellets hit the lungs, that will usually drop a deer in about 30 yards or so.
Off hand, I would think the tightest pattern possible is what would work best, a whole load hitting the lungs. NOW I realize your aim has to be better than hoping a pellet or two from a wide pattern hits a vital spot.
And...I notice a lot of buckshot hunters opt for a neck shot rather than lungs- like turkey hunting.
And...I realize nothing is etched in stone. I'd appreciate some honest real life buckshot information. Thanks to all. 8)

I didn't read through all five pages of responses to your question. I read the first 2, and most of the responses where such a load of crap, that I couldn't stand to read any more. I looked at the "box of truth" awhile back and don't want to waste more of my time looking at it again. I do remember there was no "truth" in it. Yes the guy tested some crap loads in one crap gun and it didn't shoot worth a damn. I'm sure that sums up all everyone needs to know about buckshot, I guess it does if you already have your mind made up and have no actual experience with buckshot.

I have quite a lot of experience with buckshot and patterning guns to shoot buckshot. I have also cleaned a lot of deer shot with buckshot (I clean a lot of deer for old people who hunt or have hunted with us) I will try to answer your questions.

I have cleaned several deer that have been killed with 1 pellet of 00. Some shot in the side, and some shot in the neck/head. For whatever reason , in those particular situations, only 1 pellet struck the deer and it killed it. Some were shot with guns that patterned poorly, some were probably shot from too far away and some were shot fairly close with well patterned shotguns that for whatever reason only got hit by 1 pellet. It is certainly not an ideal situation but it can and does happen. Buckshot was proven effective long before anyone knew anything about foot pounds of energy.

I pattern guns to shoot the tightest they can at 40 yards, If I can't get a great 40 yard pattern, I get another gun. The benelli SBE I shoot now will hold all 18 00s into 13-14" at that distance.25 yard patterns are softball sized, and I'm very confident with it out to 60 yards. I had a Browning that would throw 9" patterns with 3" 000 at 40 yards every time. I sold it for jamming. The more pellets that hit the vitals the better.

If a deer stops to look at me when he comes out, I shoot him in the face/neck. If I'm shooting at his side, I aim for the shoulder. Rest assured if several pellets hit him right in either situation he either doesn't go anywhere or doesn't go far. After the first shot, if he runs, I shoot at deer.

Buckshot also doesn't tear up the meat (or guts) anything like a rifle bullet will. It will be a little bloodshot, but can be cleaned up and you can eat right up to the hole, so if a deer is shot from one end to the other, all is not lost.

You can read all you want written by the "experts", but the best thing to do it try it for your self (not on game until you are confident). Start with a shotgun that fits you good and start with a full choke. Get as many sizes and brands of buckshot as you can find( mostly I have to order the quality stuff off the internet. Most shops or Walmart won't have a good selection). Back off 40 yards and shoot at a big piece of paper. I use the cardboard that comes on top of a pallet that feed is stacked on (I get it from work, but I bet a feed store will give them to you). I use a big piece because good buckshot is expensive and a missed shot won't be a wasted shot. Also, If your gun isn't hitting to point of aim with that load, it doesn't mean it won't pattern it well. If POI doesn't mach POA, that can be fixed later with sights or a red dot.

9 times out of 10 I will end up with a full choke. If you are shooting a 3.5" gun, try Remington 3.5" 00. Every 3.5" gun I have patterned has shot this load well. I think it has something to do with it having a real wad, and not just card wads. It's the only full power load that does. If you are shooting a 3" gun, Try to find Winchester 000. It has shot great in every 3" gun I've tried it in but one. Good luck

_________________
Nothin' runs like a deer!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:49 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:52 am
Posts: 5313
Davems wrote:
Now a days how do you practice with a rifle on running game? You can take a shotgun to a trap or skeet range and learn to hit flying targets but a rifle? I don't know of any training anyone can undertake to learn to shoot a running animal.


A skeet range is a good place to practice these types of shots. Sporting clays is another good way to practice though the cost is greater. The distances can be similar to what you would find in the field in most cases. The difference is a clay measuring about 4" across is a much smaller target than a deer's vitals. Repeatedly crush a clay (chips don't count) and it is not too difficult to do the same on a deer.

Of course, you will probably want to use something tighter than a skeet choke to more closely replicate the pattern you want to achieve with buckshot. Choking tighter than needed is a common practice for competitive shooters to learn to better center the target in the pattern. I commonly shoot Full choke at skeet distances and have no qualms shooting a running animal at relatively close ranges with single projectiles if need be. I do so with air rifles on ground squirrels and chipmunks in the yard, rabbits in the garden with a 22 LR, coyotes when called or in front of dogs, and wounded/injured deer with rifle or slugs when needed.

The old time shooters often shot jack rabbits and the like to learn how to shoot running animals, today one needs to use inanimate objects to get the same skill. Luckily, one can find such opportunities relatively close to home in most cases.

Davems wrote:
That first N. FL deer- I shot its twin in Ocala National Forest- same 8 pts, looks to be the same size. Mine dressed out at 104#. In other words the deer are smaller than they might appear if you live in Maine or NY.


I think location is also a key factor. A deer that dresses at 104# here in MN or WI will be either a yearling doe or a buck about ready to drop from starvation. A yearling buck will run 140-160# on the hoof as will a mature doe. A 2 year old buck will be upwards of 160#, usually around 180# and it is not uncommon to run into bucks over 200# in many areas.

Davems wrote:
I think a pattern that puts the whole load into a pie plate- keep testing brands and chokes until you find that and you should be good.
And-obviously, in order for the whole load to hit you must be at a close range.


I figure if I can put a 10" pattern of buckshot in the vitals of a deer, I can do it with a slug or bullet too. Many years of using slugs on deer drives in my early hunting days have proven it to me at least. After all, one is not looking at relying on a single pellet in the vitals with buckshot but a number as close to all of them as is possible. Again, it is personal preference but I do believe the center of any "pattern" is the same size whether one is discussing slugs or #9 shot and if one can place that center on a target consistently, then it doesn't matter much what is used providing the shot size is appropriate for the game/target and distance.

One does need to use what they have confidence in and for me a single projectile is fine. Its been decades since I last shot running deer unless they were previously wounded or injured but if I had to for some reason, I would have no compunction doing so with a slug or bullet.

Again, my main experience with buckshot is not in the hunting arena but mostly in putting down already injured animals. The more pellets on target and the closer together they are, the better the results in my experience (as well as that of many posting in favor of buckshot) and I feel a slug is the ultimate end of this spectrum.

Other factors that influence my opinion more towards slugs is that the animals are often adrenalized from being injured which will have an affect to some degree as well as often having to take a raking shot where the shot may have to travel through a fair bit of the animal to reach a vital or to break major bones such as shoulders and hips. Experiences will have an affect on decisions and mine are different from those of some others who have posted. The more data (and hopefully more varied) one can get, the better and more informed of a decision one can make. I know I have changed my thoughts on the use buckshot in other applications from what I have learned here and elsewhere.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:27 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:18 am
Posts: 22
Again thanks all for the input. I mentioned the small Florida deer because on a smaller deer the buckshot ought to penetrate through it much more.- this may explain why many who favor buckshot are also in southern states.
Finally, what I sort of suspected is apparently true, you want to keep trying ammunition and chokes until you find the tightest pattern possible. If you are simply lucky enough to get a super tight pattern then you can extend the shooting to 50 or so yards, otherwise 35 "ish" yards is probably good in most situations. In the places I hunt that is okay. As I said the last buck I shot I stepped off at 37 yards. That was with a 30-30.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:54 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:35 am
Posts: 666
Location: Alabama
RandyWakeman wrote:
It means only what it means and shows only what it shows: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-t ... -buckshot/ .


Indeed, same source: Another cylinder bore, a cutting edge buckshot load and a very different result:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-t ... -buckshot/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:04 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:14 pm
Posts: 48
Location: DFW
My goal this deer season is to do two things. Take a deer with an AR and take a deer with buckshot.

My pattern standard for buckshot is pretty high...whatever range all pellets fall inside a 9.5 inch paper plate is my maximum range. period. Several factory loads (#1, 00, 000) with the appropriate choke will do this out to 35-40 yards. Federal Flitecontrol 00 or the big stuff like Dixie Slugs Tri-Ball or Hevi-Shot Hog Wild will do this to 45-50 yards depending on the shotgun, and sometimes farther with the Tri-Ball or Hog Wild depending on the choke used.

The most important thing is to pattern test YOUR shotgun/choke/load combination. Do not assume that you can take any shotgun with any buckshot or any choke, shoot a deer at way past ethical buckshot distance, and it will die instantly and erupt like a volcano.

Know exactly what YOUR shotgun/choke/load combination will do.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

_________________
Train until your Idols are your Rivals.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:15 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:35 am
Posts: 666
Location: Alabama
Indeed so!

Far too many shotgunners have never formally patterned any buckshot load. Even those who pattern buckshot casually have never established the maximum distance they should consider shooting at a deer!




LeonCarr wrote:

Know exactly what YOUR shotgun/choke/load combination will do.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:39 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 8:24 pm
Posts: 30
What I've gathered from reading this thread is that most all of you live in areas that allow rifles. Not all of us have that luxury.

Most of Eastern VA is buckshot only.




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 101 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: bhasser, Bing [Bot], Bobonli, Clearwater81, COL-RET, dcblvsh2, derbyacresbob, driller, fhelbig, floridaford, fungunner, gbanker, Gil Ash, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, greblum, Heavy Hitter, hopper810, HTSmith, ithacanut, jpari, jpwheels, kenhartshorn, KRIEGHOFFK80, la angler, lucky hunter, maggs01, Medley, mickster2, mjtripper, mortum, MSNbot Media, mtchamber, noweil, Oldman1949, oneounceload, rat-man, rcleofly, redbeardinntx, Remduck1, rickeroo, RIMaster, Road Rat, Rooster booster, sarazorback, schlarmanm1, sherpa guide, Slow Joe, spartacus38, sportinclays10, StormRhydr, tastycake, tracker 6, tractman, Turkinator, USAFA71, ysr_racer


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice