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 Post subject: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 1:10 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:41 pm
Posts: 25
I bought a Beretta A400 Xplor 28 Gauge for my wife......not for hunting, just clays.

She's 5 ft 5 in. tall and 120 pounds and this gun is finally light enough at about five pounds ten ounces.

But I'm wondering if the length of pull is a little long at 14 3/8 inches.

In your experience, can women this size use this LOP for shooting recreational clay targets in a relaxed setting?




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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 3:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:53 am
Posts: 589
Location: Dallas, Texas
Why don't you have her shoulder the gun and see if she's comfortable with it? Better yet, have her go to a gun fitter and have the gun fitted to her. MAJ

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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 6:36 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:32 am
Posts: 3017
+1 to MAJ

OP, is your wife a complete noob or does she have some experience under her belt.

If she's very new, definitely get a gun fitter to advise her. If she's not, I think she can figure it out quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 8:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:23 pm
Posts: 5315
Location: Brillion, WI
Yes, the LOP is definitely too long for your wife. She will not be able to swing it as easily or as accurately as she could if it were the right length.

As a very rough guess (without knowing if she leans her neck forward to put her cheek on the comb), it may be as much as 3/4" too long (and that's a lot for someone of her size).

Something else to consider is the height of the comb. Does she need to lean her neck forward to put her cheek on a higher part of the comb that will allow her to see along the surface of the rib or very slightly down-onto the surface?

With the gun mounted and her cheek on the comb (without her neck leaned forward) Her thumb and the tip of her nose should be separated by about 1.25".

This can vary slightly depending on how directly she faces targets when she shoots. When a stock is too long, shooters rotate their stance so their shoulders are nearly in line with the direction they are shooting, which severely hampers swings in the direction opposite their gun mount - to the left for a right-handed shooter.

Also check to find her dominant eye. A large percentage of right-handed women are left eye dominant, which causes serious problems when they are shooting with both eyes open, the best way to shoot.

Taking her to a stock fitter who is familiar with fitting women is excellent advice. Tell us where you live and we may be able to recommend a good fitter within driving distance.

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Rollin

Author of "Stock Fitter's Bible, Second Edition," which explains the interrelationships between shooting form, stock dimensions and a shooter's size and shape http://www.amazon.com/Stock-Fitters-Bible-Second-Edition/dp/1451570384


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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 9:24 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:41 pm
Posts: 25
Thanks, Rollin. I'm gonna function as the fitter, for better or worse.

She's probably closer to 5-4 inches (she lies about her height) and she's petite. Even this exceptionally light gun is a bit of a challenge to manipulate.

She doesn't know enough about how it SHOULD feel to realize how uncomfortable she really is.......but she's definitely not comfortable with it and her left hand is as far back on the fore end as she can get it and her right thumb is a strong three inches from her nose.

She seems to be getting her cheek snug against the stock but probably stretching a bit. She says she can see down the barrel to the bead just fine (it may not be as fine as she thinks).

I'm thinking the stock has to be cut an inch and she needs a bit of cast off.

Both of these things can be done fairly easily, I think. There's a shim in the box for cast off and I have a good gunsmith who can take care of shortening the stock.

We'll go with that for now and see if the problems are solved. If there's anything else we should be looking at now--by all means, post away.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 9:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:41 pm
Posts: 25
Oh......and she does close her left eye when shooting. We'll let that go for now and look at determining master eye and shooting with both open later.

She's in her mid sixties, so I'm glad she's willing to even try this instead of being a knitting couch potato. {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 10:32 pm 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:23 pm
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Location: Brillion, WI
Logos wrote:
Thanks, Rollin. I'm gonna function as the fitter, for better or worse.

She's probably closer to 5-4 inches (she lies about her height) and she's petite. Even this exceptionally light gun is a bit of a challenge to manipulate.
She will gain strength as she shoots and uses shooting muscles.

She doesn't know enough about how it SHOULD feel to realize how uncomfortable she really is.......but she's definitely not comfortable with it and her left hand is as far back on the fore end as she can get it and her right thumb is a strong three inches from her nose.
Without knowing how she will stand when she shoots and how much neck lean she needs to place her cheek on the comb to look along or slightly down onto the surface of the rib, I will not suggest how much to shorten the stock. Just be careful not to shorten it too much, especially if you live in a part of the country that has snow during the winter and she will be wearing more clothing when the weather cools.

Also check the pitch on the stock and whether it is correct for her. It is, if, when she mounts the gun (brings it back to her shoulder) the whole recoil pad, top tot bottom, makes simultaneous contact with her shoulder.


She seems to be getting her cheek snug against the stock but probably stretching a bit. She says she can see down the barrel to the bead just fine (it may not be as fine as she thinks).
Assuming that the gun has a rib, have her mount the gun (bring it back to her shoulder).

Look at eye with your eye just beyond the front bead. If you can see her whole pupil, she is looking along the surface of the rib and the gun will shoot flat.

If her pupil is above the level of the rib, the gun will shoot high, which is ideal for rising trap targets if it isn't too far above the rib.


I'm thinking the stock has to be cut an inch and she needs a bit of cast off.

Both of these things can be done fairly easily, I think. There's a shim in the box for cast off and I have a good gunsmith who can take care of shortening the stock.

We'll go with that for now and see if the problems are solved. If there's anything else we should be looking at now--by all means, post away.

_________________
Rollin

Author of "Stock Fitter's Bible, Second Edition," which explains the interrelationships between shooting form, stock dimensions and a shooter's size and shape http://www.amazon.com/Stock-Fitters-Bible-Second-Edition/dp/1451570384


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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 9:31 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:41 pm
Posts: 25
Thanks again, Rollin.

I think the pitch is ok, but it's probably hard to tell when the stock is this badly fitted to her. Might have to adjust later, but it looks like it will work.

I think cutting an inch will bring it to a length where she can adapt successfully......it's probably erring on the side of too little rather than too much.

You're right.....her strength will improve and even more important, I think, her familiarity with the process will improve and that's an important component, too.

Thanks, again.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:04 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:45 am
Posts: 219
Location: Illinois
Does it have a rubber butt pad? Take it off and let her feel it shortened. If it fits better cut the stock the width of the butt pad. That's what I did for my wife's bt99


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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:40 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:57 pm
Posts: 11
Location: Somers, NY
A quick and dirty rule of thumb for LOP is to:
1. bend your shooting arm 90deg at the elbow.
2. place the butt of the gun in the crook of the elbow and grip the pistol. She should be able to comfortably reach the trigger. Personally, I'd rather a gun that is a drop short than a drop long, especially when shooting "low gun" mount.

What's her sight picture? Does she see both beads? I like a figure 8 or a "lazy" figure 8. If she sees only a 0, that's OK too. Just note it. Next, pattern the gun and adjust the comb to acheive the desired sight picture (8) and lead distribution.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:34 pm 
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User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:42 pm
Posts: 74
Location: Northern Colorado
TomJV wrote:
A quick and dirty rule of thumb for LOP is to:
1. bend your shooting arm 90deg at the elbow.
2. place the butt of the gun in the crook of the elbow and grip the pistol. She should be able to comfortably reach the trigger.

While this is the time honored "traditional" method it would only give the distance of the length of someone's forearm itself; it ignores the individual makeup/measurements of the shoulder and upper arm. The only way to check for LOP is to mount the gun. Popular recommendations are for the rear of the thumb holding the wrist of the grip is to be from 1-2" away from the nose.

If you look at the Olympic shooters, they seem to "crawl" the stock, with 1" or less...

Here are a couple of examples:
Image
Image
Image
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:07 pm
Posts: 6
Two Shoes, can you tell me what type of cheek riser the man is using in the second photo that you posted?


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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:26 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:42 pm
Posts: 74
Location: Northern Colorado
steelemaiden wrote:
Two Shoes, can you tell me what type of cheek riser the man is using in the second photo that you posted?

Hi steelemaiden,

It looks like Shaikh Ahmed Almaktoum might shoot something custom made. I have seen blade style hardware before but a company name escapes me. The cheek piece itself is just wood and tape when you zoom in on it.

I had an adjustable comb installed and ran out of adjustment. I needed to make another cheek piece as I didn't want to start hacking away on the original. The one I made is on the left.

Image

So far it is working great.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:12 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:11 am
Posts: 409
Location: Cheyenne Wyoming
Logos wrote:
Oh......and she does close her left eye when shooting. We'll let that go for now and look at determining master eye and shooting with both open later.

She's in her mid sixties, so I'm glad she's willing to even try this instead of being a knitting couch potato. {hs#


Let it go permanently verrrrrrrrrrry few women can shot with both eyes and no occlusion


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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:43 pm 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:53 am
Posts: 589
Location: Dallas, Texas
I started shooting skeet at 60, and sporting clays a year or so later, currently closing in on 67. Not much interested in knitting or the guy version, looking at other people play sports on TV. MAJ

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'Where is the kaboom? There was supposed to be a giant earth-shattering kaboom!" Marvin the Martian


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 Post subject: Re: Help me, Ladies!!!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:52 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 16981
TomJV wrote:
A quick and dirty rule of thumb for LOP is to:
1. bend your shooting arm 90deg at the elbow.
2. place the butt of the gun in the crook of the elbow and grip the pistol. She should be able to comfortably reach the trigger. Personally, I'd rather a gun that is a drop short than a drop long, especially when shooting "low gun" mount.

What's her sight picture? Does she see both beads? I like a figure 8 or a "lazy" figure 8. If she sees only a 0, that's OK too. Just note it. Next, pattern the gun and adjust the comb to acheive the desired sight picture (8) and lead distribution.



Old wives' tales never seem to die. There is a lot more to fitting a shotgun; ask Rollin (or better yet, buy and read his book)



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Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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