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 Post subject: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:35 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:51 pm
Posts: 23
I bought my daughter a 20 gauge Syren Tempio and she shot it for the first time today. She loved the feel of the gun and shot it well but had to quit after 62 shots because of recoil pain. I would appreciate any opinions on the following questions:

1. She was shooting Fiocchi Shooting Dynamics 7/8 oz 1210 FPS. I am sure a lighter load will help. Any opinions on a good lighter load for 20ga? Does shooting less than 7/8 oz put her at any significant disadvantage?

2. Does anyone have experience with a KickEez pad versus the standard Guerini Pad? Any other suggestions for a softer butt pad?

3. Anyone have any experience or hearsay regarding the Guerini Kinetic Balancer?

4. She was wearing a Beretta vest with gel pad but the pad does not come up to her collarbone where the pain was concentrated. Any suggestions for shoulder padding for women?

Thanks.




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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:57 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:22 pm
Posts: 687
Kick-Eze is a very good pad, but I feel it is only part of a solution. I would not rely on it by itself to overcome a systemic problem of poor fit or improper mount. The velocity of her ammo may be higher than necessary. Is the gun a sporting clays model rather than a lighter weight field model? That would be helpful. But all that amounts to minor effects. One needs to look for something significant to cause that kind of discomfort. Is there so much pitch that the gun only contacts her at the collarbone, and not throughout the length of the butt? Does she mount the gun firmly? A fitter should be your first stop.

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Last edited by Auldthymer on Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:12 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:51 pm
Posts: 23
The gun is a sporting model. I realize how important fit is but I don’t want to do any stock alterations until she has shot it more and practiced her mount. Also the gun will be used by my other daughter and daughter-in-law and they are not ready yet to each have their own fitted guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:22 pm
Posts: 687
Rckdr wrote:
The gun is a sporting model. I realize how important fit is but I don’t want to do any stock alterations until she has shot it more and practiced her mount. Also the gun will be used by my other daughter and daughter-in-law and they are not ready yet to each have their own fitted guns.

If the gun doesn’t fit, she will be practicing a faulty mount. Quite often people convert that to bad habits and then make those permanent by fitting the gun to those mistakes. The fit comes first. When the gun fits properly, her mount will more likely be proper.

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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:03 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:24 am
Posts: 257
Win AA has a 20 ga. 7/8 oz shell labeled Low Noise/Low Recoil (or something like that). it is advertised at 960fps and you will be surprised how well it breaks targets. If you reload, you can do the same thing with 7/8 oz and 1000fps. This will not fix the problem here, though. I have had the kinetic balancer....nothing magic, it just adds some weight to the gun in the stock. imo, the effect on reduced recoil is minimal. my take though is that there is an improper mount and or an ill fitting stock. a trip to a reputable, well recommended fitter will answer both questions quickly. it does not have to be an expensive custom built stock.....may simply be one of the adjustable butt pads. in fact, you don't want the expensive custom stock until she has shot awhile, if ever. the money you spend getting this right will be miniscule compared to total $$ over her life as a shooter.


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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:26 am 
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Location: Dallas, Texas
Auldthymer wrote:
Rckdr wrote:
The gun is a sporting model. I realize how important fit is but I don’t want to do any stock alterations until she has shot it more and practiced her mount. Also the gun will be used by my other daughter and daughter-in-law and they are not ready yet to each have their own fitted guns.

If the gun doesn’t fit, she will be practicing a faulty mount. Quite often people convert that to bad habits and then make those permanent by fitting the gun to those mistakes. The fit comes first. When the gun fits properly, her mount will more likely be proper.


+1 on this. "[T]he gun will be used by my other daughter and daughter-in-law and they are not ready yet to each have their own fitted guns." Going down this track means that three people will be shooting a gun that doesn't fit them instead of just two. Why not fit the gun to the daughter who actually does shoot? The two occasional shooters will likely be no more inconvenienced than they already are. MAJ

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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:55 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:51 pm
Posts: 23
Good thought. Gil Ash has an article in the September issue of Clay Target Nation in which he says “A new shooter’s gun fit will change as many as three times in the first 20 to 30 flats”. I consider her a new shooter since her mount is now totally different from her old Benelli. The fit now does not look too far off and I will probably change the pad to a KickEez dual action and go with lighter loads and have her use her bra strap pad before we start alternating the stock. Thanks for the info on the Winchester shells.


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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:51 pm 
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Rckdr wrote:
Good thought. Gil Ash has an article in the September issue of Clay Target Nation in which he says “A new shooter’s gun fit will change as many as three times in the first 20 to 30 flats”. I consider her a new shooter since her mount is now totally different from her old Benelli. The fit now does not look too far off and I will probably change the pad to a KickEez dual action and go with lighter loads and have her use her bra strap pad before we start alternating the stock. Thanks for the info on the Winchester shells.



I've had a Kick-Eez pad or the Packmyer equivalent on every shot gun I've owned. They are definitely better than the pads that come on the guns for reducing felt recoil. MAJ

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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:58 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
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Why is her collarbone taking recoil instead of the shoulder pocket? Sounds like a fit issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:43 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:51 pm
Posts: 23
I don’t know if it’s the collarbone itself or the upper shoulder area that the pad in her vest did not cover. I did not check pitch yet but she did remark that as opposed to the Benelli she noticed no muzzle flip. One thing that she was doing that I have to correct was she kept her left hand at the front of the forend which made her left elbow fairly straight. This may result in driving the butt into the shoulder.


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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:22 pm
Posts: 687
Rckdr wrote:
I don’t know if it’s the collarbone itself or the upper shoulder area that the pad in her vest did not cover. I did not check pitch yet but she did remark that as opposed to the Benelli she noticed no muzzle flip. One thing that she was doing that I have to correct was she kept her left hand at the front of the forend which made her left elbow fairly straight. This may result in driving the butt into the shoulder.

Forget about the vest. It is just a placebo relative to the level of improvement possible with a fully optimized gun and ammo. When the system is properly optimized, you daughter will be able to shoot comfortably in just a tee shirt.

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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:36 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:24 am
Posts: 257
you have been given some good advice. I wish for your daughter's sake you would consider it instead of looking for quick band aid fixes. I hope you have many years of enjoyable shooting with her.


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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:17 pm 
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I can say that in the 11 years or so i've been shooting shotguns, I used a number of fixes, primarily on my early guns that were built for "standard build" men. The fixes included Ken Rucker's lovely Bumpbuster on a number of guns. Even with the Bumpbuster, I'd often come home with a bruise on my collar bone from trying to get the gun to seat properly. I have noted that I've needed none of those fixes on my "chick built" guns and I've had no bruising or recoil pain. I've moved away from sub-gauges, and my current guns, all of which have been fitted to me and have either a Kick-eez or Pachmyer recoil pad, are 12 gauges, a Syren Tempio, a Syren Elos N2, and a Blaser F16. I'm a month shy of 70 yoa, 5'6", and very close to finally getting out of the buck fifty club. I do occasionally get slapped in the cheek (totally my fault) and I've learned the painful lesson to not put my tongue between my teeth when concentrating. I shoot 1 oz loads not in excess of 1200 fps. I consider the comfort of a well fitted gun loaded with shells that suit me right up there with the comfort of a custom made pair of boots. Once you wear those, you never want off-the-shelf again. Mary Ann

P.S. And in another topic under "Women Shooters" called "new shooter needs lots of advice," (or something like that), siderich05 made a number of well-informed and entertaining comments about gun fit for women.

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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:01 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1321
I resisted kick eez for years based on stickiness and looks. Finally relented this past year and I gotta say they really do work well. And I’ve improved my mount such that I don’t hang up on my vest at all.

Also removed my vest pad as it was creating some mount inconsistencies.

Min weight for a smooth shooting 20 is 7+ lbs imo. Max FPS is 1200 and I’d look hard for something around 1100 if it can be found. That coupled with a kick eez should help a lot.

Lastly a good firm mount and leaning into the gun make a world of difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:19 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:22 pm
Posts: 687
birdhunter39 wrote:
I resisted kick eez for years based on stickiness and looks. Finally relented this past year and I gotta say they really do work well. And I’ve improved my mount such that I don’t hang up on my vest at all.

Also removed my vest pad as it was creating some mount inconsistencies.

Min weight for a smooth shooting 20 is 7+ lbs imo. Max FPS is 1200 and I’d look hard for something around 1100 if it can be found. That coupled with a kick eez should help a lot.

Lastly a good firm mount and leaning into the gun make a world of difference.

Yep! I shoot fully mounted and have no problem with the pad catching on my clothes. But when I have tried low mount, I have had some problem with the pad hanging up. Kick-Eze does make a sporting clays model with a beveled top edge that is supposed to mount easily.

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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
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I have that version on one gun and the non beveled on another. Was a bit surprised but even the non beveled doesn’t present an issue. Though it’s worth noting that is a field gun with slightly shorter LOP.


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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:04 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:51 pm
Posts: 23
Thanks everyone for your comments. Low recoil loads seem to be out of stock everywhere but my local course has Fiocchi “trainer” loads (3/4 oz 1100fps) in limited supply. It’s easy for me to grind and place a KickEez pad. Gun fit is going to be a problem. Her DAC seems to be ok despite her high cheekbones but with her cheek in the right place on the comb and eye well positioned on the rib a good bit of the butt is above her shoulder. This is going to require a very good gun fitter but I do not know of one within easy driving distance of Philadelphia (she is a busy veterinarian so forget a long trip). Her mount is all over the place and she needs to get this a little more consistent first.


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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:48 pm 
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Location: Dallas, Texas
Rckdr wrote:
Thanks everyone for your comments. Low recoil loads seem to be out of stock everywhere but my local course has Fiocchi “trainer” loads (3/4 oz 1100fps) in limited supply. It’s easy for me to grind and place a KickEez pad. Gun fit is going to be a problem. Her DAC seems to be ok despite her high cheekbones but with her cheek in the right place on the comb and eye well positioned on the rib a good bit of the butt is above her shoulder. This is going to require a very good gun fitter but I do not know of one within easy driving distance of Philadelphia (she is a busy veterinarian so forget a long trip). Her mount is all over the place and she needs to get this a little more consistent first.


How about a visit to Cambridge to see Andrew? 2.5 hours, 129 miles, sea food for lunch? And maybe consider a Graco adjustable butt plate.

And your daughter is a veterinarian! God I love vets! I have often wished I could have my pups' vet for my doctor! MAJ

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 Post subject: Re: Syren recoil problem
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:49 pm
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[quote="Rckdr"]...."with her cheek in the right place on the comb and eye well positioned on the rib a good bit of the butt is above her shoulder."

I'm late to this party, however I'd still like to add my $.02 to the discussion -- just in case you have yet to find a solution to the problem.

Your statement "a good bit of the butt is above her shoulder" says it all. According to what you are saying, all the other aspects of the mount seem to be right. This tells me that the gun simply doesn't fit properly. Period. Proper fit is essential to comfortable accurate shooting. You said she has a long neck and high cheek bones. The butt of the stock is pitched too low. I had the same problem with my Syren Tempio Sporting 12 gauge model. I ended up scrunching my head down in order to be able to sight down the rib, otherwise I was looking down on top of the rib which resulted in the gun shooting high. It also resulted in a sore neck!

Does your daughter's gun have an adjustable comb? If so, try raising it some. Just be aware that the higher you set it the less her eye will be looking down the rib and more down ON the rib. This results in shooting high which necessitates floating the bird higher above the muzzle of the gun. My Tempio Sporting did not come with an adjustable comb, so I had a local stock maker cut the comb and make it adjustable.

You have spoken about installing a softer recoil pad. As others have stated, this will not solve the problem of a poor gun fit. There is, however another solution you might look into....

There are a variety of recoil reduction devices which can be installed on the butt of the gun, some of which are adjustable for length of pull, pitch of the stock, toe in or out, etc. The one I like is the Gracoil. I ended up lowering the butt pad to the max in order to accommodate my long neck, thus getting most of the (KickEEZ) recoil pad to fit in my shoulder pocket without the top of it sticking above my shoulder blade. Next, I was able to adjust the toe out so it would not poke me in the side of my chest. That is a girl-thing! l also adjusted the length of pull to suit me. Finally, I was able to adjust the recoil dampening to the point where I felt as though I was shooting a .22 rifle! Soooo comfortable! It is important to note that the Gracoil comes in two models. One has adjustable length of pull, the other does not. I recommend the one with adjustable LOP as it will ensure a more perfect fit.

If you are still trying to consider making adjustments that are not permanent so that your 3 daughters can use one gun, the use of the Gracoil could be a solution. Just make adjustments each time a different daughter needs to have the gun fit her individually. Of course this is not an nor a permanent solution. Changing the settings cannot be done quickly enough to make it possible for all three girls to shoot together by handing the gun off to each other when it is her turn. The best solution for multiple shooters is multiple guns -- each fit individually.

Finally, I totally agree with the suggestion of light load ammo with slower muzzle velocity ratings. Interestingly enough, once I had the Gracoil installed on my 12 gauge, I was able to shoot 1-1/8 oz @1200 fps 12 gauge loads (I like those for 27-yard trap) with no problem.

Hope these suggestions will give you something to consider -- that is if you haven't already solved the problem!




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