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Ok, H1 was discussed recently so now I have a question about station 2. I am fairly new so my scores are usually around 15 to 18, with a 20 or so once in a while. (My worst stations right now are still are on 3 - 5)

But back to 2. I have got the picture pretty well on holding and waiting for high 1 to come down to my barrel. So I reasoned that a good idea for high 2 would be to do pretty much the same thing but let the target come down a bit to top left of the barrel and that worked a few times I tried it. However one of the guys at the range is a certified instructor and I took his beginner class session (it was very general and did not go into detailed mechanics on each station). When he sees me trying that he rags me that my hold point is too far out from the house for #2.

Well, yes, that hold is out nearer the stake but, it seems easier and faster for me to get the swing and the target together this way. Anyone have any suggestions or comments on this?

One handicap for me is my vision. I am 52 and have worn glasses since third grade, so they are near coke bottles now plus age presbyopia. I am finding it very difficult to clearly pick up crossing targets until they are well out of the house. Probably at least to where the books say the hold points should be.

I have gotten comfortable with station 8, I can pick those up quick enough since they are coming right at me.

Oldstick,
Yes, I have a suggestion. If you will do as the certified instructor suggests, I promise you that your scores will improve!
Good Shootong!

Hi Oldstick, quite a problem you have there. As you know there are always at least 2 ways to shoot a station, sustained and swing through. Bender teaches to hold straight out plus 2-3 feet toward the center stake and teaches sustained. However, I am thinking this is based on where most shooters pick up the bird, which is as it comes out of the house, and you don't have that option. Bender (again:) will be the first to say, his hold points etc are a starting point, and each shooter needs to modify them for themselves.

When I started shooting skeet I didn't think I could pick up the bird out of the house do to cervical degeneration, (bad neck). However, when I took a lesson from Bender he had me finding the bird right out of the house in 2 seconds.

So, what to do... If you truly cannot pick up the bird, then I would think the only thing for you to do is modify the hold points or learn to shoot swing through so you can learn to shoot it in a way that is best for you. However, I would think first, you need to do some experimenting to see if you really can pick up the bird far earlier than you though. I learned that by keeping my cheek on the stock, but cheating my head to the H house along with using more peripheral vision, I really could pick up the bird just fine, and I'm hoping you might also find you can do some combination that will let you use a more conventional hold point as your instructor is suggesting.

Breaking the bird around the stake is a real advantage, as once it gets past the stake, the wind has a much better chance to take over, and the bird is now dropping, and moving away. Not to mention that for every foot the H bird is moving away, the L bird is getting closer!

Best to you,
Jim

I have worked hard on this and I think H2 is all about vision and finding the bird while not letting it get out in front.
Sometimes eye dominance can get involved here as for right handers your right eye can not see the bird out of the house if your holding at "Benders" hold point. One of the instructors at the club has me move my focus point away from the house closer to my barrel than what I was doing. I had my focus point on the house... Once I brought it closer, my eyes started to relax letting me focus on the target when it would come into my right eye's field of view.

Only an instructor or good shooter that sees you shoot can truly help this is just my experience...

Your instructor is giving you good advice... move in.

shoot it this way or that way it really does not make any difference....we score the hits, not the process.

If you found your way to gun club with your glasses on, you can see well enough to hit a high 2....but you do have to use your eyes. My hold point is like the Bender method, but I hold my eyes about 4" left and 4" up off the barrel and just look for the flash at the left edge of my vision. I actually stand there and watch blow right past my barrel. Then simply catch it and shoot right at it....the barrel has to be moving faster than the bird so gun speed builds in your lead...just shoot right at it and it should break about 10' before the stake. Swing through style...try it out for a while. After you get comfortable doing it as a swing through shot, I think you will find the target has slowed down and you are seeing it better. Once you know you can make this shot, it really does make it easier learn the sustained lead shot.

Instead of watching the target blow past your barrel, you simple start moving the gun when see that target flash...stay in front and pull the trigger...presto changeo you are now shooting sustained lead. That's how I teach this shot, as a swing through shot first, then ease it into a sustained lead shot....1. because we only score hits, so get them hitting the bird and 2. sooner or later a h2 is gonna beat you and had better know how to put a swing through shot on it.

Go back and work with that instructor some more...it's easier than you think...you can do it!

Geez....for a second there I thought you were telling us you had a cervix (The narrow outer end of the uterus...ref: dictionary.com).

Just teasing there DJ. Hope your neck's OK.

It sounds like you think your biggest problem is vision, and your inability to bring the target into sharp focus early results in a hold point near the center stake. Just as a check, do you see the target clearly, closer to the house, when your friends are shooting? If you do, part of your problem is not getting your eyes off the gun far enough and/or looking at the hood ornament.

H2,

Position your body for it to be neutral gun hold about 3' back from center line.

Gun hold will about 90* from the station to the target line path, then about 2' to 3' towards the center line from that point (depending on your field and if it has a adjacent 60 yard marker in front of you, just inside the marker),with the barrels at the bottom of the window level.

The move on the target has to be leg driven only with your weight forward, and your head and body staying glued together on the gun from hold onwards (read not throwing/pushing the gun at the target).

Now on hold, look up through the top/left of your left lens with your head glued to the stock, and do not call for the target until you have focused on that spot in space. You are not looking at the house window, but the tiny space on the path line of the target about 4' out, so even with narrow glasses, you will still not have a problem mounted and focusing on the needed look point.



Now call for the target, and do not move until you see the flash in the upper left hand lens of your glasses as the target appears. Again, do not move until you see the flash. You jump/move on the call (even with the fastest of pullers), and your barrels are going to get to center line longer before the target even gets to your hold point.


Now, once you see the flash, leg drive the gun, but do not pull your eyes off the target at all (read should be staring at the front leading edge of the target). If you leg drive on the target when you see the flash, stay glued to the gun and it glued to your body, your going to be on the target at the desired break point with ease (read right where you set your body up neutrally for the break, and when the target becomes very focused,and everything is lined up just right).
Note: Do not break your focus on the target to try to see the front bead against the target. If the gun is set up to you correctly and you have locked it into your body on the move (read upper body being leg driven on the target with the gun locked into your upper body, and the gun not thrown/indexed off the shoulder lock point at the target), it will be shooting where you are looking (nose of the target),and will crush the target.

The downfall you will find if you did everything above correct and missed has nothing do with what you just did, but you not trusting the shot when it came time to pull the trigger, hence wanting to take the target for a walk near or after the center post as you start lead gauging the target with the front bead. This is a bad thing in two ways. The first is that you have your body set up for a set break point, and if you start taking the target for a walk long past such, you may run out of body swing and bind up. The second is just after the correct break point, the H2 target on general is going to start diving downward, and if you combine the two (out of swing and a target dropping below your barrels since you broke focus on the target to look at the front bead), blowing either over the top or behind the target almost becomes a given with correct sustained lead. Note here again, if you are shooting in front of the target, you moved before you saw the flash.

Now if you just did everything right and smoked the target correctly at the correct break point, this brings up to L2 on the pair.

Target smoked right where you want it, and the barrel of the gun as went to center line on the follow through all by itself. Now after you have glimpse the first target crush (glimpse, not marveled on the break), look over to the right of center line about the same plain as your first break. Low and behold, the second target is going to be right there, with your barrels in front of the target at a perfect hold point for such, and the return move to break the second target is short and sweet as well (read both targets where broken with both movements very smooth and controlled)!!!!

Regarding playing follow through shooting, granted that is can be done, but the target has to first beat you, then you have to run it down, and then pull through it's flight path to break the target. The target flight distance that this will take on H2 will put the target either at center line, or shortly after(even with the correct hold point), causing for a painful return stoke on a second target in a pair (read nothing smooth about the pair). I'm not saying that it can't be done, but if you practice this way for all shots (pass through), your going to be dying when it comes time to shoot doubles at 3/4/5.

Note: a little trick I like to teach is to slow all the target down through observation alone. Granted that you are not slowing down how fast the targets are really moving in the air with your mind (we are not Jedi masters), but by truly focusing the target (read counting the ribs if needed) this sharpen focus of the target allows your mind to process the target at a much increased rate, hence slowing it down mentally.

To prove this point, lazy watch a target go across the field. It will get from one house to the OB marker rather quickly. Now really focus on another target as it leaves the house, and hard track it with both eyes just to center line, hence mentally slow the target down. The hard focus of the target going just to center line will be twice as long in your mind as the entire mental flight speed of the full field fight of the lazy target.

Simply, our minds and body reactions are very quick (yes, even upwards of a 100 years old), and when you have everything in tune and focused, there is not a single target that will be thrown that you will not have plenty of time to control/beak at any desired break point. So, If you missed a target, chances are 99.9 percent of the time you did something wrong long before the target ever left the house.

Good suggestions from everyone, I appreciate the replys. As for the glasses I have an idea or two. One thing is I have had to move to much smaller diameter lenses lately, even using the high index plastic, because otherwise my prescriptions will result in thick blocks sitting on my nose. So I have a limited range for clear peripheral vision without having to turn my head. I do have contacts also, but I am at or beyond the limits for those, so they do not quite give me all the correction I really need for sharpness.

But I recently had a pair of glasses made just for shooting, using some big old wide frames that I was using for sunglasses. I chose the transitions type for varying light conditions. The weight and ugliness are not big issues since they are only for shooting and I will use strap to keep them in place. Have not had a chance to go try them yet, but they seem to cover a lot better range of periphery.

I don't know though, H2 just seems much like H1 (coming from over the shoulder). Seems to much awkward turning back to catch it much before the stake.

Yeah, they are both high house targets...but they are very different...with good targets you can shoot H1 with a dead gun. H2 you better be ready to move the gun because this target is moving.

With your hold point out close to the center stake, you have moved your peripheral vision out towards the center stake too....so you're sitting out there with a dead gun just waiting for the target. Move back in you at least start to see it faster! I know this will sound stupid and I guarantee you feel stupid doing it....stick your left finger up in air and use it like your shotgun. Try the closer hold point, watch where you start to see the target flash, watch where it comes in sharp focus, move your finger like you were shooting this bird. You can do it while everybody else is shooting station 2....if your buddies don't mind you do it while they shoot station 1 and 3. The point is find a hold point and a look point that works for you and your vision. With a little "dummy work" I bet you'll find you can get back closer and shoot this target quicker...which is gonna come handy with the double.

Oldstick....there are other good instructors out there.... another one may be a better fit. I know what you mean about "you'd just have to know the guy"....btw, that works the same way....you'd just have to know some of these students! Look for that instructor you can work with, you really need someone at your side watching you and the shot....the best we can really do is look at our monitors!

Since vision is at least part of the issue here, I would suggest getting real shooting glasses - Rangers, Post 4, Decot, etc, with interchangeable lenses. Then get prescription lenses in fixed colors. I like vermillion on sunny days, pale yellow on overcast days. Others like light purple, bronze, and brown lenses. Look at a clay bird thru the various colors and decide what color works best for you. Shooting glasses fit higher on the face, and have the optical "sweet spot" where you need it for shooting, not reading the newspaper.

Sounds like you could be having a stance issue as well, and that could be part of the problem. Are you standing with your Right foot back behind you? Or are your feet parallel and under your shoulders about shoulder width apart with your belly button facing the Low house window? If your Right foot is back, it locks your hips and discourages turning to the Left to pick up the high house bird coming out of the house.

Jim

From this statement, I can tell right off the bat that you are not set up for the shots correctly from the start.

1H body position should be set so your natural gun hold is at the center stake. The target should be appearing dead over your head, straight to the center line, with just a short downward move need to break the target.

2H, again, set your body up for the break point before center line, and come back to the hold weight forwarded to break the target before it even gets close to center line. If the target feels like it's coming from over your shoulder, your body is set up way to far past center line, and you are bound up to start with (read the move from a correct hold point will be you coming over the top of your front hip, killing any chance of a smooth swing). H-2 should not feel like a going away shot, but rather a quick left to right shot instead if you are set up correctly, and breaking the target when needed.



Regarding vision needed for this shot, even shooting in standard RX lens (not even close to be called wide), the distances from the hold point, to the look point is not so great that is can not be done in these. The truth is, with wider lens and looking look back father into the house window, you will find that you will have to delay on the move once you see the flash to keep from shooting in front.

Hate to say it, but we can write about the problem as much as we want, but you need some hands on time developing/correcting your form in general with a coach or instructor. Even if you have to pay for such, it will be cheaper in the long run that wasted ammo trying to figure out the problem with bad form errors learned along the way (and even harder to loss when it does come time to learn how the shoot the game correctly as well)

I would be highly surprised if they make these that will fit my prescriptions and I'm sure it would be a small fortune for multiple lenses even if they did. Mine are always custom order, limited availability, even at the optometrist shops. No "ready same day" or "two for one" specials for me.

But I am glad to read your comment because that is exactly why I chose to use these particular frames. They are made without prominent nose rests (or whatever you call them). So they do fit high, tight and directly centered over my eyes, especially with the strap to keep them snug. My normal specs are made for general use and reading, so that is why I figured a change would help.

So, if I understand, you are saying belly button points more centerish rather than " at low house" on #2? That would clear up a lot of things if so.

Close your eyes, and mount the gun up solid to your face and shoulder. Now open your eyes and look where the gun is pointing. Now move your feet until when you mount the gun up blind and open your eyes again, it's pointing at where you are going to break the target. This natural body stance for break point is going to be the most solid stance you have at target break, and allowed the most swing room from both, the hold position, and the follow through after break as well.

In regards to shooting doubles, if your break points are not the same place on the field, split the difference between the two points and use that for your natural body position.


The whole point your belly button at the window only works if you are using a short stocked gun, and when you mount up the gun, it, like your belly button, is pointing at the same place down range. Now in the age of longer stocked guns to keep you from throwing the gun, the muzzle aim point when mounted will more towards your weaker side.

Also, your front foot should be pointing at the break point too, which gives you the most stability to make the forward weight leg drive move on the target as well.

[quote="oldstick
I would be highly surprised if they make these that will fit my prescriptions and I'm sure it would be a small fortune for multiple lenses even if they did. Mine are always custom order, limited availability, even at the optometrist shops. No "ready same day" or "two for one" specials for me.
[/quote]

Give a call to Dr. Jack Wills, O.D., 800 544-9191. One of his specialities is prescription shooting glasses. He advertizes in "Sheet Shooting Review" and may be able to help you out. That's where I get my glasses.

Well I made it out to the range this afternoon, with a goal in mind to concentrate on 2 - 5. So, of course I proceed to shoot four boxes and miss an embarrassing number on stations 1 and 7. I kept over rushing on H1 for some reason.

But anyway, I am sure the new glasses helped and I now understand where everyones' comments are coming from regarding H2. I feel I made significant progress on 2 - 5. I was concentrating on looking and watching the target vs a strong natural urge to see where the barrel's pointing.

I'm still coming up somewhat inconsistent with the fundamentals from shot to shot, but I feel more comfortable that I have narrowed many areas, so now it is time to shoot boxes from problem stations (yes with instructor's help).

Thanks again for everyone's knowledgable help.

Nope. Low house is the starting point. Feet parallel and slightly wider than shoulder width. Unless you mount your gun perpendicular to the body (i.e., pointing straight out from the shoulder, rather than across the body), this is your starting point. If you are one of the rare few who mounts the gun perpendicular to your shoulders, rather than close to parallel, then you are going to need to turn quite a bit back toward the center of the field. Rather than do that, however, I would suggest you learn a proper, near parallel, gun mount.

This is just my opinion, and it is worth exactly as much as you paid for it.