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 Post subject: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:35 pm 
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Simple question...I keep reading that if your gun fits you correctly, the bead at the end of the barrel should form a figure 8 with the bead in the middle of the barrel. This makes no sense to me though. Coming from a rifle shooting background, it makes more sense to me that the beads should line up exactly so that you only "see" one bead. I know it should not matter much either way since you are not "aiming" with the beads like you would when rifle shooting, I just don't understand why I keep reading that they should form a figure 8. I was wondering if anyone could lend some insight to the matter. :?



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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:50 pm 
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When you have the typical 3 points of a rifle sight properly aligned, the bore is pointing where the manufacturer intended.

With shotguns, when the beads are stacked, the bore is pointing where the manufacturer intended.

Same concept, just different alignment of the sighting aids.

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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:55 pm 
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With the beads stacked the gun is suppose to shoot 60/40 at 40 yards.

With the beads aligned the gun is suppose to shoot 50/50 at 40 yards.

The beads are there only for confirmation of your gun fit to where you want the gun to shoot. You point a shotgun when shooting flying objects, your focus should be on the target.

The height of your eye above the stock is like the rear sight of an open sight rifle. If you want the gun to shoot higher, lower, left or right you change the comb of the stock.

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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:02 pm 
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Why would someone want to shoot 60/40? At 50/50 the gun would be shooting straight on. When I shoot at a target I would think I would want 50/50 spread.

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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:30 pm 
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Most folks myself included like to see the clay at all times.With their being more of the pattern above the line of sight you can float the clay above the bbl's and not lose sight of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:48 am 
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This makes no sense to me though. Coming from a rifle shooting background,

Read more: viewtopic.php?f=94&t=270847&sid=c20ba4fc146d26a5cc4424c32c646acf#ixzz1ajNbWnAA

the rifle background can cause you a world of grief with a shotgun. Rifle and shotgun are kinda like man and woman....similar, but totally different. just find what works for you, stack, gap, or flat....then mount it that way every time and Look at the bird, not the gun. it's all about the bird, seeing and focusing on the bird. the sooner you quit looking at the gun, the faster you will start to start to shoot a shotgun better.....really. as a rifle man myself, it took a loooong time to get over looking at the gun/beads/sights. even now when I miss a target, i can almost always tell you exactly where I shot....I know because I looked at the dadburn gun again!

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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:55 am 
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Yeah, in the year that I've been shooting skeet I have definitely gotten over the rifle stance, and rifle aim mental handicap. My scores are averaging around 20+...shot a 23 the other day. It is just the theory of the bead on bead that did not make much sense to me. Now, it is the why shoot 60/40. When shooting with a maintained lead, I never have a problem seeing the bird.

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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:37 am 
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they are talking verticle, dude up and down, not lead


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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:46 am 
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Take it from me, you're going to have to break a lot of your old rifle habits if you want to shoot a shotgun well. Number one on the list is you don't aim the shotgun, you point it. The beads are there to check the mount , then you ignore the beads, stare down the target, and keep the gun moving. If you want to treat the shotgun like a rifle, put a scope on it and hunt turkeys, you'll feel right at home.

As far as the 60/40 goes, you'll need to pattern your gun to know how it shoots. I doubt it will be 60/40, I know my skeet Browning Citori is more like 90/10.

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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:20 pm 
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First, a gun fit can only be determined if you have a repeatable mount and stance, and hopefully proper, gun mount. "if I mount the gun this way, what is my eye/barrel relationship". So, you need a good repeatable mount before you can determine if the gun fits you. By good, generall this is thought to be with your head upright, comb firmly under the cheek bones, and your face rotated in toward the stock just a bit so you feel your stock fron your eye tooth to a bit back from that. With that said, many have a wide variety of gun mounts and stances to include some very good shooters who have the comb mounted well below their cheek bone. It just needs to be mount and stance that you have decided is what you are going to use, then its a question of "does the gun fit if I am in this mount and stance."

As mentioned, stacked "bb's" is only a reasonable approximation for gun fit. It means nothing without patterning the gun to see what a give mid and fore bead relative position yields in terms of pattern. For example, with stacked beads, my K80 shoots much too high for my preference. My mid-bead now only comes up to about the 1/2 point on my fore bead. This gives me about a 60/40 pattern, which is what I currently like.

Why not 50/50...well, some do like very flat shooting guns. Some like 100% of their pattern to be above the the point of aim. Most like much of their pattern above with some below in case a target gets underneath them.

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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:38 pm 
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Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
most new shooters flinch and they dont realize it. the 60 40 gives you and better pattern, so when you do dip your gun, the high lead swarm still hits something. if its 50/50, youll miss totally shooting under.
the better you get at shooting skeet, the less you flinch, especially in smaller gauges, and the 60/40 becomes a way to see the bird at all times above the rib.


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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:56 pm 
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As a relatively new shooter, there's something I'm still trying to get a clear answer on. I realize and understand that the beads aren't sights, and that you should look at the target and not the gun. However, I also hear people (including Bender) say things like "the lead is seen, and the shot is taken." (fundamentals DVD section on H2). In order to "see" any kind of lead, you need both reference points...the target and the gun, right? When people say ignore the gun and look at the target, do they mean just that, or do they mean have the target in focus, but be visually aware of where the out-of-focus gun is? Am I making any sense?

When I shoot, the target is what's in focus. However, I still "see" the gun, and know what the different leads look like between say a H2 and a H4.


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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:09 pm 
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KennyPowers wrote:
As a relatively new shooter, there's something I'm still trying to get a clear answer on. ... When people say ignore the gun and look at the target, do they mean just that, or do they mean have the target in focus, but be visually aware of where the out-of-focus gun is? Am I making any sense? ...


Another relatively new shooter here ... and I've asked those questions of a fine fellow coaching me . Yes, they mean exactly what they say (what you said). Look at those beads and the rib to get the gun properly mounted. Once mounted, and done correctly as a matter of habit, the gun is going to point where your eyes go. Now, just watch the target. Turn your entire upper body where your eyes are seeing the target. The gun will follow.

Yes, you might see the gun peripherally, but if you intentionally look at the gun (doing a "bead check") you've just looked away from the target and guaranteed a miss.

There's also a school of training that says shoot with both eyes open. Sure, use the dominant eye to ensure the gun is mounted correctly. Then open both eyes. All the better to see the target. ... and if after the shot you feel cross eyed, that's an indication you were watching the gun instead of the bird.

At least that's the theory ... all much easier to write about than to do repeatedly. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:37 pm 
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Kenny, you are aware of the lead but your concentration ison the clay. To the point of people saying things like "try to see the rings on the clay", look at it with hyper con centration.

If I start looking at the lead then I miss the bird. I know there is a lead but if I concentrate only on the bird I hit it regardless. I guess somehow your brain knows what to do with the gun.

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Last edited by shogan191 on Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
shotgun is 180deg opposite that of pistol shooting.
in pistol, you focus on the front sight and the target appears as a blur.
in shotgun, the target is in focus, and the bbl assy is a blur.
its that simple and physically impossible to be in focus on two objects at the same time 21 yards apart.
if the cheek weld is tight,
if the beads are stacked,
and your swing and lead is right,
wherever you look is where the shot goes.

some say it in different ways...

but any ole skeet shooter has heard it 100 times....'see the lead, pull the trigger.'

if you want your shot to go 4' in front, LOOK 4' in front and snap that trigger.


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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:54 pm 
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bobski wrote:
if you want your shot to go 4' in front, LOOK 4' in front and snap that trigger.


So are you looking at the target or at an empty spot 4' in front of it? I guess the latter if the gun is pointing where you're looking. How then can one maintain hard focus on the target like everyone says if you're looking (and therefore pointing) at a spot 4' in front of it?


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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:21 pm 
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Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
you look at the void in front.
now, i didnt invent the science of focal optics and eyes....but i can tell you this. try it.
have you ever taken photography back when cameras were manually focused?
they had a setting called infinity. its a place where everything is in focus past a certain distance. your eyes are the same way.
when you focus on a face closeup with a camera, everything in the background is out of focus, because the lens cant be in two places at the same time. your eyes are the same thing.
you can change the focus point with your mind back and forth, just like a camera lens is twisted to the desired setting, but for you to focus out to the target and focus back to the bead, then focus back to the target will drive you nuts.

im a little rusty, but im pretty sure infinity setting is around 30'. 21yds is 63' or so. thus, everything your eye sees at 21yds in front and on the target is in focus by the infinity factor.

in sure some optometrist may chime in to smooth it out, but you got the idea. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:27 pm 
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I don't ever bring the bead or gun back into focus while I'm shooting...the target is always in focus. However, I am aware of the apparent distance between the target and the blurry, out-of-focus gun, and I know what that should look like for each shot. I guess I'm wondering if this is what everyone else does when they say to have focus on the target, or is the fact that I'm even visually aware of the gun at all a no-no?


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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:35 pm 
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Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
whatever works for you.
if youre having problems with it, i always tell my students, try something different! its hard to retrain people, but once they see it works, theyre all smiles.
but then its up to them to decide to hold on to the new learned skill or ignore it and go back to the old habit.
thus the old saying, 'you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink.'

kenny, concentrate on being you. even if its not what EVERYONE does. youre an individual. be unique. use what works, and discount what doesnt.

heck, maybe someday youll invent some new way to shoot and be famous!
ive seen people shoot squating like a duck with their butt 4" off the ground.. it works for them, but not for me! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Sight picture confusion/gun fit
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Keep in mind when you're listening to people that there are several ways to shoot. Swing through, pull ahead, and sustained lead.

If you are shooting sustained lead then the focus will be more on the point in front of the bird.

If you are shooting swing through you will be focused more on the target.

I'm not sure what pull ahead does.

I know that most times I'm focusing on the target and not a point in front of it. If I start trying to measure 3' or 4', I start missing.



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