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 Post subject: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:30 am 
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On a couple of other threads on this site recently there has been discussions about the 4x50 format. Several folks have responded that they don't like them because they have "too many trivial shootoffs" which tend to make for a very long day. After I've been at the gun club from 8:30AM to 6PM shooting in 100+ degree temperatures, the last thing that I want is to hang around the gun club for another couple of hours while a "bunch of trivial shootoffs are conducted". If I'm shooting out of town, I want to get back to my cool motel room, unwind, then go to dinner. If I'm shooting locally, I want to go home and have dinner with the wife. The words enclosed in quotes are someone's words from the other thread.

One of the gentlemen on the other thread said the he had seen instances of buddies purposely dropping targets in order to prolong some obscure concurrent shootoff so that they could shoot some more free targets. I have actually seen this done on several occasions, and it was done by guys who were darn good doubles shooters so the shootoff would go on for quite some time.

I am one of those folks who doesn't like 4x50's, but I have a suggestion for your consideration. How about this, settle ties this way....shootoffs would only be conducted for perfect scores, any ties involving non-perfect scores would be settled using long runs. This would reduce the number of shootoffs significantly, as well as shorten a very long day and also save the club some much needed money.


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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Lots of small shoots are done either long run, or just coin flip instead.

The only problem your going to run into is if the description on the match calls out for shoot-offs, and one of the guys in your shoot off wants to shoot them instead.

Bottom line, it's an honor shoot, and you don't want to to wait around for the shoot offs, then leave. So your take yourself out of the hunt for top gun is something, really doesn't matter since there really is nothing on the line anyways other than your standing in the SSR for that match.


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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:32 pm 
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Long run is even less fair then the current system of breaking ties. If you want to be completely arbitrary, draw straws.

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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:40 pm 
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In reality, an equitable way to determine ties would be using the carry-over system that they use in trap. Tied in the 12ga? The tie breaker is the 20ga. Still tied, now the tie breaker for both is the 28ga. Still tied, now the tie breaker for all 3 is .410.

I believe any tie that involves $ or AA points should be shot off under all circumstances. However, when the tie is only involving an honors only class or concurrent place (no money, no points, just a place), I believe a carryover system would work well.

Barring that, I believe it should be the shooters responsibility to reimburse the club @ least the actual cost of targets for any shootoffs that don't involve $ or AA points. "Free practice" certainly isn't free for the club.

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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:51 pm 
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Ian, why is that system any more fair than long run? In a sense it is basically the same thing. You are looking for some kind of differences to separate those tied. It might make more sense to start with the 410 but then there is no barometer that tells us when one is better than the other.

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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Breaking ties with long runs suck. They are for the convenience of the shoot and have no real relationship with establishing competitive places based on shooting performance.

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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Customstox said: "Ian, why is that system any more fair than long run? In a sense it is basically the same thing."

Agreed, the measure of success in regular skeet is how many regular skeet targets can I break out of a 100 target event. Why should we use a different game (3,4,5 dbls) to break ties in regular skeet, which is a game that does not contain any 3,4,5 doubles? All 3,4,5 doubles do is prove who the best 3,4,5 doubles shooter, not who the best regular skeet shooter is. Probably the long run, which determines who broke the most consecutive regular skeet targets is the truest measure of who the best regular skeet shooter is.


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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:20 pm 
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The reason why we no longer use regular skeet to break ties is that some shoots-offs went for days!!

If "the measure of success in regular skeet is how many regular skeet targets can I break out of a 100 target event", then how many were broken consecutively doesn't have any meaning or validity.

My particular favorite is a shoot programs that establishes long runs from the front only as the basis of breaking ties. The only thing this signifies is that the shoot registration desk didn't want expend the time and effort to have to count them up from both ends.

While we don't shoot 3/4/5 doubles in regular skeet, as a method of tie breaking it is at least shooting at targets. Places decided by long runs are determined by just paperwork.

Perhaps many who have been around the sport for some number of decades may have become weary of shoot-offs and late nights, but I believe that most people who have gone to....say the Masters...and are tied for class 2nd/3rd would much rather get a chance to determine places by head to head competition in doubles shoot-offs rather than have it determined by long runs.

Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:40 pm 
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If you want to do long run, count the longest run between misses, period (most consecutive targets in a row). That might be from the front, back, or somewhere in the middle. That would be the fairest solution to an unfair proposition.

All of this is probably moot, since I've never been to a shoot (and would never go to one) where any $ places are determined by long run.

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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Baron23 said: "say the Masters...and are tied for class 2nd/3rd would much rather get a chance to determine places by head to head competition in doubles shoot-offs rather than have it determined by long runs."

As I first said in my first post perfect scores would be shot-off. Most likely in a shoot the size of the masters perfect scores are going to go all the way from AAA down to D class anyway. I agree that where $ are on the line some form of head-to-head is the appropriate way to settle scores. Also when $ are on the line there most likely won't be anyone trying to prolong the shoot-off so as to shoot more free targets.

At least let us consider a possible alternative way to settle all these concurrent ties which now require shoot-offs and where there is no money on the line and and all they do is take up time and cost the clubs money throwing all these extra targets.


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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:25 pm 
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Baron23 wrote:

My particular favorite is a shoot programs that establishes long runs from the front only as the basis of breaking ties.


Consider this.

Shooter A misses High 1, then runs the next 99.

Shooter B runs 99 then, misses his last Low 8.

Ask yourself, who shot the varsity 99, and who shot the JV 99?


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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:12 pm 
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Baron23 wrote:
The reason why we no longer use regular skeet to break ties is that some shoots-offs went for days!!

If "the measure of success in regular skeet is how many regular skeet targets can I break out of a 100 target event", then how many were broken consecutively doesn't have any meaning or validity.

My particular favorite is a shoot programs that establishes long runs from the front only as the basis of breaking ties. The only thing this signifies is that the shoot registration desk didn't want expend the time and effort to have to count them up from both ends.

While we don't shoot 3/4/5 doubles in regular skeet, as a method of tie breaking it is at least shooting at targets. Places decided by long runs are determined by just paperwork.

Perhaps many who have been around the sport for some number of decades may have become weary of shoot-offs and late nights, but I believe that most people who have gone to....say the Masters...and are tied for class 2nd/3rd would much rather get a chance to determine places by head to head competition in doubles shoot-offs rather than have it determined by long runs.

Cheers


Respectfully disagree. Shootoffs from 3-4-5 are an expedience to the shoot and are no more appropriate than long runs. As a matter of fact 3-4-5 doubles are less fair as a tie breaker in "regular" events. It always favors the better doubles shooter and how is that more fair?

Long run from the front is a form of "sudden death", just as dropping one target of a pair can be - except you don't get a second chance at $uccess. In the case of say a .410 event without any perfect scores I see nothing wrong with long run from the front 1st as a tie breaker. The best shooter is the one who hit the most before dropping, just as if one were on the 3-4-5 shootoff field. For most of those who've been around a while - it sounds like blasphemy. But it's not really, even a newbie could understand the concept of long run. It's the ones who have been at this for a while that seem to accept 3-4-5 as "fairer". It is not, it's merely a second chance.

Things may have changed, but, doesn't NSSA still use long runs to settle places in their (Masters, US Open, WS etc.) shoots?


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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Personally, I would be prouder of a 99 straight after missing H1 than hitting them all and missing the last L8.


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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:35 pm 
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Well, I'm open to disagreement. There are differing views and I accept that.

ShootsInMaryland - to me, neither is varsity or JV, both shot 99 out of a 100 target event. Now if we handicapped misses by degree of difficulty of the station (e.g. missing a L7 is worse for your numerical score than missing a H2, for instance) then I might agree. For that matter, if we are goign to go down that slope, we might as well handicapp scores by the target break (chip, broken, smoked). But as it stands, our game is number hit out of number shot at. I have never missed the first H1 and then ran them out. But I have missed H1 single in the second round and then ran them out for a 99. It still felt like a 99 and a missed opportunity to me ;-)

Tractorboy - sorry if I didn't read your original post carefully enough. In fact, many years ago before the Masters moved away from FCGC for a while, I was in...I think B class... in the 12 ga. There was indeed one single 100 and three 99's following of which I was one. I had missed on L5 in the 3rd round as the first shooter up after a break to allow the field to be rewired (these were the temp fields they used to have with loaner machines from NSSA...a real treat, I'll tell ya! LOL ;-). The results were determined by long run. I remember feeling a bit cheated of the opportunity to compete to break the ties.

Glenn - I would see you point if we were in fact a game of sudden death.....start the 100 birds, miss one and leave the field. But we are not a game based on sudden death nor do we handicap stations. Its straight up % broken. All hits and misses are equal on the score sheet. While I would agree that 3/4/5 doubles to break ties is not directly related to the event for from which the tie derived, if its one of the main singles events. But it sure seems like a lot closer than doing it by paperwork. At least it does involve shooting a shotgun at a skeet target (LOL).

Well, vive la différences.

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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:36 pm 
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ShootsInMaryland wrote:

Consider this.

Shooter A misses High 1, then runs the next 99.

Shooter B runs 99 then, misses his last Low 8.

Ask yourself, who shot the varsity 99, and who shot the JV 99?


0/99 is an achievement
99/0 is an embarrassment

Bruce

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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Be careful of too much disdain, Bruce....it might happen to you someday ;-) LOL

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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:45 pm 
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Make all shoot off participants use a Mossberg 500. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:03 pm 
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Baron23 wrote:
Be careful of too much disdain, Bruce....it might happen to you someday ;-) LOL



It has.

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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Baron23 wrote:
Well, I'm open to disagreement. There are differing views and I accept that. ................Glenn - I would see you point if we were in fact a game of sudden death.....start the 100 birds, miss one and leave the field. But we are not a game based on sudden death nor do we handicap stations. Its straight up % broken. All hits and misses are equal on the score sheet. While I would agree that 3/4/5 doubles to break ties is not directly related to the event for from which the tie derived, if its one of the main singles events. But it sure seems like a lot closer than doing it by paperwork. At least it does involve shooting a shotgun at a skeet target (LOL).

Well, vive la différences.


It is a game, it's about who's the best shooter that day. It's about winning. WINNING. It is not about score. Scores are the scourge of the game. Scores are merely numbers which have no intrinsic value except to determine winners. The score sheets reflect the performance on the competition field that day for the purpose of determining winners. I know you didn't intend to disparage anyone's performance on the competition field, but, in denigrating long runs to "paperwork" that is what it amounts to.

There was a time in NSSA's past when perfect scores were not the norm as they are today. Long run was used to decide ties, as it was factually based on performance under pressure. Sure, the guy who was straight till high 2 in the last field feels his score was just as good as the guy who made it to low 6 in the last box. The scores are equal, but the better of the two shooters made it by high 2. He should be the winner.

The importance of "score" is probably the biggest hurdle to overcome if NSSA is to turn the game around. I surely don't have a solution for that, but only the stogy head in the sand types can't or won't admit it. The object of competition is winning, not some intrinsic value.


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 Post subject: Re: How to settle ties
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:57 pm 
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Glenn - I agree completely....and the way we determine winners is by total number of target hit out of targets shot. By definition, that is how we determine a shooter's performance.

The only differences between us on this issue is whether "where" you missed matters. I say no. As a matter of fact, I say that the degree of difficulty of the station that you missed has more to do with the shooter's performance that day than where in a four round event that it happened. But our sport does not evaluate performance that way either.

So, I do think long runs are determination of winners by paperwork as I don't think that consecutive targets are part of our performance evaluation EXCEPT when it suits shoot mang for convenience.

You ain't seen them long running gun champs (where there were no 100's) or have you?

Anyway, off to the gym to try to keep my aging body in some semblance of...well, "in shape" would be too much self-flattery! LOL

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