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 Post subject: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:21 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:15 am
Posts: 83
Location: Down Under - Australia (SA)
Hi All!

A mate of mine with years of shooting experience noticed over recent years that his favourite Browning wasn't delivering on the scorecard for him like it used to. His gun is very flat (50/50..or close to it) as is my Beretta 682 Gold E.
A past coaching experience with past Aussie World Champ 'Damien Birgan' gave an opportunity for us to shoot Damien's gun (a Beretta DT 10) which is set up quite high in comparison to ours. Damien suggesting that the higher gun allows him a clearer picture on the target and its line.
At first look with the gun we both said 'no way' but with no conscious adjustment to style or target approach, both of us 'smoked' everything instantly and the targets Damien had set were not 'easy' by any stretch. This was about a year or so ago.

Well my mate has been giving it more thought and started experimenting for a few weeks and has now fitted a cheekeez pad to his beloved Browning. Yesterday he belted us at our local shoot with 65/75 (remember we mostly shoot a couple times a month here in OZ....not a few times a week like some lucky buggers).
After the competition yesterday, our squad all had a shot with the Browning and low and behold....little ink blots everywhere. It all seemed easy.

So, I too am now going to give this a try. I managed 60/75 yesterday (not too bad for me). I haven't been shooting much in recent months and probably gave up 5-6 targets that should definitely have been in the bag...particularly dropping targets.

Just wondering if anyone else has tried this? What were your findings?

I know every gun is a little different as are the people that use them but this has been an interesting phenomenon. Perhaps as we get older and a little less fit, adjustments need to be made. It'll be fun to try it out some more if nothing else.

Cheers and good shooting. Can't wait for August.
Haych 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:37 pm 
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That's why i chose the xs skeet for both sporting and skeet :D

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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:55 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:11 am
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Location: Aussie.
Mate I shoot a Stepped rib Perazzi that throws a POI of 55/45 find it loves Sporting and so do I for the results, I wouldn't wana go any higher mostly because of the those dreaded loopers where you need to be in front and under, if on top of that you have to allow more for under,,,Hmm not sure,,,you didnt mention what POI it is now shooting, high stock means higher POI have you checked to see??

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 Post subject: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:27 am
Posts: 1219
Many of the top Pro's shoot higher guns, in the 60/40-70/30 range. This apparently is not widely known.


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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:26 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:15 am
Posts: 83
Location: Down Under - Australia (SA)
I would think POI on both the Browning and my Beretta would be very very close to 50/50 (did mention it early in post).
Mine certainly was when pattern testing a while back and haven't changed anything since.

The DT 10 we shot (without pattern testing) appeared as though it would throw somwhere around 60/40 or higher.....it was a significant difference. Can't be sure but it had to shoot higher.
Like I said, no conscious change to lead either in front or underneath.......just smoked targets.

I have heard that alot of good shooters now prefer a slightly higher gun.

A change is as good as a holiday they reckon. Looking forward to trying it out.

Haych 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:32 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:54 pm
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Location: Durham, NC
My 391 shoots 80/20. I don't feel I'm making any special allowance for any target, including dropping
loopers. It just feels natural to me.
I'm glad to find out I'm not the only one. I shoot the same gun for handicap trap and I don't make any adjustment to it other than a tighter choke.

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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:09 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:15 am
Posts: 83
Location: Down Under - Australia (SA)
By the way I'm not expecting any miracle cures or trying to reinvent the wheel here.

Just finding that there could be something in it and think its worth experimenting with a little more.
If it means 1 more (not less hopefully) target here and there cool.

Have to expect a few hiccups along the way too.

Hopefully will get to try it out this weekend on a different range so could be a good test.

Haych 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:48 am 
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Haych,
I am glad that you enjoyed the new experience.
A couple of things, it is common sense really, but it does help to break clays if you can see them clearly during all of their flight, if you have to blot them out, for a micro second you will not know if you have hit it or not, making a follow up shot just that little bit more difficult. You could try a Trap gun stock on your gun to give a similar set up to what you have tried.
BUT beware with redical changes as you may have to go through a whole new learning experience.
I once owned a Perazzi which needed three changes in stock to get me a gunfit / sight picture that I liked and could confidently smash clays with. When I got it sorted the stockmaker thought that the comb was too low in his opinion.
The other thing that may have been evident when you all shot the higher comb gun was that it instantly cured those that shot their bad habit of head lifting or peeking which may have crept into their standard game unnoticed.
You certainly have done no harm by trying something different.
Once shot sporting clays somewhere near to Victor Harbour, thoroughly enjoyed the way you do things out there. Shoot 50, Barbecue, shoot another different 50, now THAT is Sporting Clays. :) :) :)


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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:02 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:54 pm
Posts: 1046
Location: Durham, NC
I've seen that many of the top shooters never fully mount their gun. At best, it touches the lower
part of their cheek. Kruger, Radulovich, Miles come to mind. I don't see how they could ever
be looking down the rib - so isn't that the same as shooting a high shooting gun.

I've tried raising and lowering the comb numerous times and it doesn't seem to help or hurt my shooting. I think I instinctively adjust to seeing more or less rib. Guys who can shoot from the hip probably do the same thing.

I think it would screw you up if you had an adjustable comb and an adjustable rib; and set your
gun up to shoot higher but see the same amount of space between the beads.


Last edited by dickgtax on Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:42 pm 
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 Post subject: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:13 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 1:26 pm
Posts: 107
Location: The 'Potteries', England
Forgive the noob question, but does this mean you see a lot of rib and therefore you need to shoot consciously and noticeably further below the clay than you did with the previous 'flatter' gun?

If so I do understand the logic as your sight picture must be clearer, but how much further below the target do you need to shoot and how do you know how much is right?


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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:57 pm 
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iggy,
The answer to all your questions is practice and then you are no longer a noob but a veteran :) :) :) :) .


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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:25 pm 
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iggy: Listen to sal. Get some shells that don't kick too much. Recoil is a fun-killer.

I use 1 oz @1200 fps. Go shooting.....see what works for you. Shoot some more....if you're serious about the game , get some tuition.

trigger time....the only secret.

sal: My K 80 won two shoots in the last two weekends...all by itself....I didn't have to do a thing.

Krieghoffs rule and Mirokus drool. {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:55 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:15 am
Posts: 83
Location: Down Under - Australia (SA)
Salopian:
Sounds like you may have shot at the 'Helenic' gun club.
I've never shot there but here it is quite 'civilized' :lol: .

I also think you hit the nail on the head with the 'raising the head off the stock' comment.

Marist89:

I have shot the same gun unaltered for over 10 years and it has taken me most of that time to 'learn how to shoot it'......and I still got a long ways to go.
Maybe though, over those 10 years enough of a habit has now become ingrained where a little height on the stock might help....for whatever reason.

iggy:
When we shot the higher guns there was no conscious thought of "get the gun more under"....it was just that the sight picture looked right when we pulled the trigger and god damn it...the target broke.
Fluke...maybe!

Sera:
wanna sponsor me a K80? I'd have to rob a bank to be able to get one! :lol:

Thanks for posting everyone.
Haych 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:47 am 
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Haych,

You don't need a 'K' gun a Miroku will do it easier and better.
As you said, you would have to rob a bank to afford to buy a 'K' gun.
Or of course you could always emigrate to the US and become a Lawyer, I know a guy who is a Lawyer and shoots a 'K' gun, he won two shoots in the last two weekends.
He just wishes he had a Miroku !


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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:17 am 
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Shooting a flat gun can be a problem for 2 eyed shooters because it places the rib much more into the line of sight for the left eye (RH + R eye dominant shooters). This puts the dominant eye under stress because the brain wants the left eye to focus on the great big rib/barrel unit rather than have the dominant eye focussing on the little clay. The higher the eyes are above the rib, the less likely it is that weak or changing dominance will cause problems. You can often spot someone shooting a flat gun by their way of holding the gun close across the chest like an archer and leaning the head over the comb to lift the non sighting eye higher and get a less cluttered view.

A higher shooting gun is similar to using a dot or grease spot to impede vision for those with cross dominance in that it clears the way for the sighting eye to provide the best information for the on-board computer.

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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:05 am 
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Haych,

There are other reasons to use a gun with higher rib over a flat rib than the speculations you just learn about!

There it's a lot of trash coming from overseas, so be selective and listen to things that makes sense!

Here it's an example:

"The higher the eyes are above the rib, the less likely it is that weak or changing dominance will cause problems."

As we know, the eyes are lined up at the same level so if the dominant eye is above the rib
the other one will be at the same level. :roll: Da...so both eyes will work together and much more, at the higher rib guns you can see more rib so the awareness of the barrel is more accentuated !

Here it's an other one:

"A higher shooting gun is similar to using a dot or grease spot to impede vision for those with cross dominance in that it clears the way for the sighting eye to provide the best information for the on-board computer."

To translate this aberration, the dominant eye is above the rib and the the non shooting eye is blocked by the high rib of the barrel or by the barrel :lol:

The reason you need to shoot higher rib gun is because many Sporting clays presentations are rising and shooting a flat gun will make you to shoot below and maybe behind it!
For the other target presentations, with the same gun, you have to know where to place your gun in the holding position to match the gun with the target flying path!

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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:10 am 
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Just a question but if a high shooting gun shoots the rising targets better does it shoot worse on the dropping.
And cant u just lead the rising target more if your gun shoots flatter or this all about having the target above the gun as much as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:16 am 
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I think that with the advent of information technology we are all getting sucked in to information overload.
Just get a gun that fits reasonably well, a lot of shells, get out into the great outdoors and concentrate on shooting what your pointing the gun at. Don't get too hung up on technicalities 'just shoot the thing'.


Addendum:- "whilst typing the above comment, shotguncoaches words of wisdom were posted, I have no dog in that fight".
But I would like to say that should you criticise another persons post, you should make sure that your information is 100% correct. Sadly the last paragraph, in my opinion is not 100% correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Higher gun for Sporting.....any experiences?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:21 am 
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"Just a question but if a high shooting gun shoots the rising targets better does it shoot worse on the dropping."

I this situation you have to know very well where your gun shoots and play with the holding point !

"And cant u just lead the rising target more if your gun shoots flatter or this all about having the target above the gun as much as possible."

On a rising target you need to get a lead with 2 coordinates

1) in front ( horizontal)
2)for height( vertical)

You are doing the first one, and the high ribbed gun the second one !

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