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 Post subject: Re: Shotgunworld welcomes Brain Chokes
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:13 pm 
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I was told there would be no math or science in this thread. :)



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 Post subject: Re: Shotgunworld welcomes Brain Chokes
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:28 pm 
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there's not. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgunworld welcomes Brain Chokes
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:38 pm 
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You know, I'm a mechanical engineer as well and I have ZERO interest in spending even 5 seconds of my valuable time thinking about what goes on inside a choke......


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgunworld welcomes Brain Chokes
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 3:00 pm
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Jim Miller wrote:
Sobrepuesta wrote:
No, the root of the problem is that this shareable information that paper punching pinheads love so much is completely USELESS because one cannot use it to improve performance where it matters: on the scorecard.
BINGO!



Depends on your need.

There are occasions within shooting sports that knowing whether or not a particular combination of equipment and ammunition is capable of the desired performance, will only be learned through intelligent testing.

There are other occasions when knowing whether or not an item performs as advertised and justifies a premium & perhaps substantial price, is also only going to be determined through intelligent and non subjective testing.

There are other occasions when the BS gets so deep that the responsible action is to say "Whoa horsey".


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgunworld welcomes Brain Chokes
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:41 pm 
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Fionnbharrth wrote:
There are occasions within shooting sports that knowing whether or not a particular combination of equipment and ammunition is capable of the desired performance, will only be learned through intelligent testing.
The clay shooting sports are not among them, you can take that to the bank.

You will never learn anything of significance where it matters by shooting static paper sheets and counting holes when performance is measured by broken (or dead) targets that have to be shot while they are moving with three degrees of freedom.

If you're talking about rifle marksmanship, then yes, there is a direct correlation between shooting paper targets and the other kinds.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgunworld welcomes Brain Chokes
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:48 pm 
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I have a feeling that this timps chap (or chapette) knows their stuff.

A while back, a bloke who was world class at fluid dynamics surfaced. You'd be amazed who you bump into in a place like this.

Unfortunately for Christos, some people really do know the technical aspects of fluid flow.

I believe that some time back the whole venturi thing was largely debunked. For a start, the lead pellets get crushed and don't expand, so the energy is lost totally, they aren't fluid in any way really. Also they aren't a continuous / contiguous flow regime.

That the choke effect accelerates the shot also needs to be considered in it's entirety. The combination of optical (catches the leading pellets) and inductive chronographs suggest that the leading pellets are accelerated while the rearmost ones are decelerated (Neil's tests again I think plus others from Winchester as I recall). Overall the shot must slow on average because the constriction is lossy (friction, acts like a brake, squashed the shot that takes energy, etc) and that is what the inductive chrono that measured the average shot body shows.

From such chrono observations and high speed photography from Winchester, my suggestion was that chokes work by accelerating the frontmost pellets, decelerating the rear ones, thus forming an elongated string which is more efficient at cutting through the air. The amount of this effect is seen in pattern density downrange. Different choke profiles of sufficient constriction all gave similar results which suggested that one hits a limit to how much the velocities can be increased/decreased and/or how effective this can be given approx 1oz of shot. For example, it might be that some wonder choke does indeed string the shot more, but this stringing spreads the pellets too much so they lose their collective ability to penetrate the air. I tested short chokes, long chokes, tapers, taper-parallel, and an abrupt ring; they all gave very similar results. The conclusion was choke profile is not critical, but constriction is. It could be that there's some profile that gives better results, but on the evidence so far, the Brain isn't it. But, I was hoping it would eke out a few percent more, so I'm pretty disappointed tbh. Still, my suggestion that choke profile isn't cirtical stands so there's no need to reset the clocks yet.

Certainly all this Venturi talk is total guff for a cylinder choke. If there was a Venturi effect the shot would behave like it had passed a choked barrel and wouldn't be a cylinder like pattern anymore. That's total bullstuff.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgunworld welcomes Brain Chokes
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:55 pm 
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Sobrepuesta wrote:
The clay shooting sports are not among them, you can take that to the bank.


That's your opinion. There are people out there who have and won at the highest levels. They don't publicise the fact that's all. In private they are far shrewder than the public persona might suggest.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgunworld welcomes Brain Chokes
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:26 pm 
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Fionnbharrth wrote:
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Somebody raised the issue of patents (prob Randy) and why the claims weren't in the application.

The US patent system has been pretty abused and debased in recent decades. In Europe and previously in the US, you had to have a tangible thing you could demonstrate AND it had to work. That all went out the window with "method patents" that allowed business processes to be patented and software.

It's worth going back to first principles about the patent system. The overarching idea is that inventors publish their idea so that others can learn from it and maybe licence it for their own uses, and the inventor gets protection from being copied.

It's implicit that the idea works as claimed and can be demonstrated (this is to stop speculative claims ahead of the technology being available). If there's no function then there's no patent, so it's best to keep the claims limited and specific. Patents are written to be as wide ranging as possible in their embodiment (that is working example) so as to stop competitors making a tiny change to get around the patent. For example, you would not claim a taper of 21.5-degs, you'd claim a taper, or restriction/constriction, whatever is as general as possible BUT still delivers the claimed specific function.

The other "first principle" thing to bear in mind is the range of protection. People tend to think of patents, but there's also "copyright", and "trade secrets". Trade secrets work for a production process but aren't much good for something like a choke were anybody could reverse engineer it. Copyright can be applied to designs and styles and would possibly be applicable to the Brain choke scenario. It's a unique style but may not be functional.

Unfortunately, that slug aligner section looks like it would rain on the copyright parade and possibly also the patent. You can't patent "a new way of using something". For example, a fork might have a use other than spearing food on a plate, but you can't patent a fork for that use you just discovered.

Nowadays, the main beneficiary of the US patent system is the lawyering industry and I'm sure someone with deep pockets and the will would find fault in the Brain application.

If it worked as claimed and takes the world by storm, somebody might challenge it and use the above slug aligner as ammunition.

Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgunworld welcomes Brain Chokes
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 3:00 pm
Posts: 7
Dr A C Jones wrote:
I have a feeling that this timps chap (or chapette) knows their stuff.

A while back, a bloke who was world class at fluid dynamics surfaced. You'd be amazed who you bump into in a place like this.

Unfortunately for Christos, some people really do know the technical aspects of fluid flow.

I believe that some time back the whole venturi thing was largely debunked. For a start, the lead pellets get crushed and don't expand, so the energy is lost totally, they aren't fluid in any way really. Also they aren't a continuous / contiguous flow regime.

That the choke effect accelerates the shot also needs to be considered in it's entirety. The combination of optical (catches the leading pellets) and inductive chronographs suggest that the leading pellets are accelerated while the rearmost ones are decelerated (Neil's tests again I think plus others from Winchester as I recall). Overall the shot must slow on average because the constriction is lossy (friction, acts like a brake, squashed the shot that takes energy, etc) and that is what the inductive chrono that measured the average shot body shows.

From such chrono observations and high speed photography from Winchester, my suggestion was that chokes work by accelerating the frontmost pellets, decelerating the rear ones, thus forming an elongated string which is more efficient at cutting through the air. The amount of this effect is seen in pattern density downrange. Different choke profiles of sufficient constriction all gave similar results which suggested that one hits a limit to how much the velocities can be increased/decreased and/or how effective this can be given approx 1oz of shot. For example, it might be that some wonder choke does indeed string the shot more, but this stringing spreads the pellets too much so they lose their collective ability to penetrate the air. I tested short chokes, long chokes, tapers, taper-parallel, and an abrupt ring; they all gave very similar results. The conclusion was choke profile is not critical, but constriction is. It could be that there's some profile that gives better results, but on the evidence so far, the Brain isn't it. But, I was hoping it would eke out a few percent more, so I'm pretty disappointed tbh. Still, my suggestion that choke profile isn't cirtical stands so there's no need to reset the clocks yet.

Certainly all this Venturi talk is total guff for a cylinder choke. If there was a Venturi effect the shot would behave like it had passed a choked barrel and wouldn't be a cylinder like pattern anymore. That's total bullstuff.

Andrew.


It's not that the pellets are the flow. It's the gas flow behind the wad & pellets. A Venturi effect boost to velocity is a non event even if it does exist. A claimed 2% increase amounts to 24 fps with a 1200 fps load. 24 fps on targets is unnoticeable. Shot to shot velocity disparity with quality factory ammo I believe runs 5-10 fps, the cheap stuff is more. SAMI allows a velocity variation of plus or minus 90 fps with factory ammo. Double Venturi effects combined with a dramatic choke profile make for superlative marketing but that's it.

While in the wad, pellets are compressed as a mass under instantaneous acceleration, completely contained within plastic and not allowed to begin to disperse into a pattern until at some distance outside of the barrel/choke, leave the wad and enter the airstream where ballistics of the individual pellets determine the spread. All a choke can realistically do is to provide a final constriction to the wad and enclosed shot package as it leaves the barrel. In the grand scheme of scattergun accuracy, one choke performs about as well as another choke of equal constriction and construction.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgunworld welcomes Brain Chokes
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 6:07 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:29 pm
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Location: Central Maine
The readers digest version which could have eliminated the last 18 pages of rubbish....

A dude from Greece is marketing a new kind of choke ....if you want to try it out....cool beans. If you don't want to try it out....cool beans.

Life is too short to worry so much about something really small in each of our big pictures.

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgunworld welcomes Brain Chokes
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 6:36 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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Yes. Let's move on to a worthy topic.....like 'how wet is water'?




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