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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Mo Jaybird wrote:
I even shot second HOA the other weekend beating the few A,AA, and M shooters. But since I was the only B shooter, no punch.
"Second HOA"? Do you mean Runner Up?




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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Mo Jaybird wrote:
Good questions. Last weekend I went to a shoot with 27 shooters in the first 100, 7 were B class. In the second 100 there were 12 shooters and only 1 in B.

In the shoot I had Second HOA there were only 11 shooters in that second 100 and just 1 in B. The first 100 had about twice the number of shooters.



If you were HOA, even with just 11....you get a punch.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:26 pm 
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Rooster booster wrote:
Mo Jaybird wrote:
Good questions. Last weekend I went to a shoot with 27 shooters in the first 100, 7 were B class. In the second 100 there were 12 shooters and only 1 in B.

In the shoot I had Second HOA there were only 11 shooters in that second 100 and just 1 in B. The first 100 had about twice the number of shooters.



If you were HOA, even with just 11....you get a punch.
I think he meant runner up...


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:39 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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Then tough cheese:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:40 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 2:37 pm
Posts: 60
Yup, I meant runner up when I wrote second HOA. Just frustrating to pay for registered targets, shoot a great score beating those in classes above me, and then not get rewarded because I was the only one in my class. As one suggested I'll start asking if there are others in my class perhaps. Declairing up a class sounds like an idea, but it appears from the rules I'd have to stay in that class the rest of the year.

Oh well, good discussion. Thanks guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:49 pm
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I've been victim of the not enough shooters in my class before. This past weekend I went to Northbrook instead of my local clubs shoot, only 2 people in B class shot the five stand and three total in B for the main. So in affect by me not going to shoot there, I cost someone a punch. Or perhaps I could have won one. It's a balance, and it will always come back around.

Some argue for punches, and some don't, in your instance, if you show up and shoot good and no one else shows up, it sucks because your chasing punches, as I'am too.

Your day will come and like suggested seek out larger shoots, I know upland always gets enough shooters for both classes.

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:42 am 
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Location: KS
It's just one more "feature" of the punch system. Could it be fixed? Probably. Would it be worth the effort? NSCA management does not seem to think so. I would guess that in a majority of our local registered events there are "too few shooters to punch" in at least two classes (usually B, C, or D and sometimes A).

I shoot as many of the local registered events as I can manage, first to support the clubs that still throw registered targets, second because I enjoy the more challenging tournament targets (not that I necessarily hit all that many of them). I attend an event if it is convenient and appeals to me; "enough in class to punch" isn't one of the criteria that I apply when making that decision. But, I am not a punch chaser; that's just never been one of my motivations for shooting.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:01 am 
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^^^^^^ Same here I compete for the enjoyment of seeing my friends,challenging targets and beating the target setter. If punches come along ok if not it's still ok :) But that's just me YMMV :)

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:39 am 
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For any shooter whose driven to get into M class, punches matter. And the way the system works now totally sucks for lower classed shooters at smaller local shoots for this OP's very stated reason. MWR stated it very well -- "Could it be fixed? Probably. Would it be worth the effort? NSCA management does not seem to think so." Personally, I think it's more about money for the NSCA; which means getting as many shooters to shoot as many shoots as possible.

The flip-side of this coin is that M class currently has too many shooters that really aren't fully competitive in M, but are too competitive for AA, and of course the idea of moving lower class shooters up faster runs counter to that -- and this is the issue the down-classing is trying to fix. And frankly, other systems like an NPA/R have their own set of problems that would be possibly more difficult to overcome, so the NSCA pretty much does have their tit in a ringer on any useful solution. End of day, frankly having the system as it is for where the growth and participation levels in our sport is, is probably about right -- it's just not all that accurate until you get into M...

So Jaybird... The only real "secret" to moving up faster is to go out and shoot more larger shoots where you can get 4 punches for 3rd or even 4th place -- states and regionals near you at least. And shooting a lot of events at them is how you will stack up punches and matriculate up though classes the fastest. Just beware of the coins flip-side -- getting into M is one thing, being competitive in M is another.

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:58 pm
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I've said this before: Master Class is so heavy I propose three Master Classes, M1, M2 & M3. This would give a more real opportunity to win in Master Class and advances and money stays in class. And from M1 you could be mandatory down classed to AA. Of course those in M3 and PSCA would not like this as it means less money for them. Currently most Master Class shooters are $$ contributors.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Quote:
Declairing up a class sounds like an idea, but it appears from the rules I'd have to stay in that class the rest of the year.


Only if you win a punch in that class, IIRC.

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:51 pm 
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If you declare up in class, you cannot go back to your old class that year. If the club moves you up in class and you do not get a punch, you can go back to your old class. Page 18 of the current rule book.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:39 pm 
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Focus wrote:
I've said this before: Master Class is so heavy I propose three Master Classes, M1, M2 & M3. This would give a more real opportunity to win in Master Class and advances and money stays in class. And from M1 you could be mandatory down classed to AA. Of course those in M3 and PSCA would not like this as it means less money for them. Currently most Master Class shooters are $$ contributors.


It's the problem with the system -- for every option you can think of implementing to make it better, you create at least one that will detract somewhere else, usually in shooter participation, money to the classes or money to the NSCA.

It's why Hopper's philosophy above is probably the best one to own :)

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:41 pm 
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So what is believed to be the down side to mandatory down classing?

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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I think some are concerned feelings will be hurt, did some would quit.....


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:12 pm 
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If you are worried about paying money/not getting punches then don't shoot the second 100. If you are looking for competition experience then by all means shoot the second 100.

You are making an assumption that you would have won your class and punched but because their weren't enough shooters you didn't get a reward. There is no guarantee you would have won anything if others stayed and shot the second 100 maybe they would have shot much better than the first 100.

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:19 pm 
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Rooster booster wrote:
I think some are concerned feelings will be hurt, did some would quit.....


without a doubt this is a legit concern for NSCA and they are trying a diffrent angle hoping more will let the system work without making it manditory. No question at all in my mind that some would walk before being forced to move down a class....not sure the number....... 5-10% probably.

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:24 pm 
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Eriehunter wrote:
If you are worried about paying money/not getting punches then don't shoot the second 100. If you are looking for competition experience then by all means shoot the second 100.

You are making an assumption that you would have won your class and punched but because their weren't enough shooters you didn't get a reward. There is no guarantee you would have won anything if others stayed and shot the second 100 maybe they would have shot much better than the first 100.


No guarantees in life or sporting. At some point we all encounter this where there are not enough shooters in class for punches. Its a bummer but not the end of the world.

Hopper has the right approach and it is one I try to focus on and follow myself. Fun and friendship first and the rest will take care of itself in time.

If the punches become more important, shop for events that will deliver the opportunity you want and need.

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:40 pm 
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Except for ego boost and hey look at me for the majority of us regular shooters what's the big draw to make M ? It ain't like there's BIG money,sponsors fighting over folks when/if you do get there. Seen several folks that lost all the fun/enjoyment shooting Registered because their sole purpose was punch chasing and making M class and again for what ? If it ain't fun what's the point ? O well to each their own reasons :)

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough shooters in second 100 registered course
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:49 pm 
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hopper810 wrote:
Except for ego boost and hey look at me for the majority of us regular shooters what's the big draw to make M ?


Speaking for myself, it was more about achievement of a goal I set for myself than anything else. My goal now is to be regularly competitive in the upper tier of M. This one is taking longer to achieve, but I'm also learning some interesting things while working on it. I believe it's never too late to strive to improve oneself... YMMV



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