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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:09 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:15 am
Posts: 58
Pete what do you mean by this:

"From what you have said I'm not the coach for you. Good luck in your search to find the right one."

You are not qualified to teach everybody? I appreciate your honesty.

Salopian. I am in the phase when I read shooting literature and watch videos.

I will get in touch with you at the right moment.

Thank you.




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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:21 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:48 pm
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Many "advanced" coaches do not want new shooters


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:39 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Holdpoint, Take care with what you read and what you watch , nothing actually beats experience and rectifying mistakes.
Browning Citori Guy , could you elaborate ? I thought that if you were a vendor you needed to sell your wares. Or do the 'advanced' coaches you know just content themselves going over and over with regular customers ? If they are regulars maybe they are not progressing , so then you have to ask, Why?


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:13 pm 
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sal: Some coaches don't want to endure the dreams of new shooters who think a single lesson will make them top flight shooters and then are furious that the one single lesson did not accomplish their dream.

Others just don't want internet trolls.

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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:33 pm 
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Location: Virginia
Fritzele74--

Swing thru begins to have limitations beyond about 25 yards.

A 35 yard crosser against a close background (assumed because of the low flight line) will appear to be much faster than it actually is. There is a possibility you are over leading the target or getting off line. IMHO, any of the methods Pete and Mike recommended are superior to swing thru for this specific target. I would not be surprised if, when you do connect with this target, your first thought will be "It does not need as much lead as I thought".

To my eye, Pete's "5 unit lead" is slightly more than the diameter of a standard clay target.

PS: I have taken instruction from Mike and use several of Pete's books as reference books. I am an avid fan of both of these gentlemen.

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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:08 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:15 am
Posts: 58
"To my eye, Pete's "5 unit lead" is slightly more than the diameter of a standard clay target."

How many fingers is that 4 or 5?


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:21 am 
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holdpoint wrote:
"To my eye, Pete's "5 unit lead" is slightly more than the diameter of a standard clay target."

How many fingers is that 4 or 5?



Think 3/4 inch per Unit if you "see" lead at the Bbl :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:10 pm 
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Hopper810---Holdpoint was quoting me. I use "barrel widths" of lead; but, when the target needs more than 4, I use standard target diameter. If 5 units at 0.75" equals 3.75" and a standard target is 4.25" and you round up or down then 5 units = one target diameter.

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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:52 pm
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Location: Grayling, MI
Do not change your method of lead, gun closer to break point. To slow down the bird, shoulder the gun but keep your head up with gun down a bit. With a wider field of view the bird will not seem as fast and your brain will see where the bird is going and where to break it better. Just experience from years of grouse hunting. With some shots and a mounted gun it can be like tunnel vision and things seem too fast. And increase lead until your hitting it!


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:10 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:15 am
Posts: 58
Hopper:

"Think 3/4 inch per Unit if you "see" lead at the Bbl :wink:"

That's not looking at the barrel to see lead aka measuring lead?

How that works properly.?


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
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holdpoint. It works in exactly the same way as using the barrel as a reference point to see lead out in feet out there at the target works.


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:23 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:51 am
Posts: 786
For me I've learned in feet. I see it as short, medium, long, very long. Through this process, it is the gap that determines the one I use to break a target...


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:24 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 1924
3 pages, not another word from the OP....


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:56 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Posts: 1754
As I have mentioned before, there are two ways that people see lead. First Pete's way, in inches or other small increments. The lead reference is taken off the end of the muzzle. For those of you who see lead this way, Pete's method is great and works fine. Buy his book.

If you see lead in longer measurements such as feet, you take your reference from the target. Because when looking at the target to determine lead you are looking a lot farther out than the muzzle thus your leads will look longer. Try this to prove what I am saying. Using your thumb and the pointing finger measure what looks to be one inch. Next while holding you gun in the shoulder pocket with your leading hand, see what this one inch looks like at the end of the muzzle. The distance will look small because your eyes are looking at a small distance. Now, using the same one inch with you fingers pick something at say 50 yards and see how far the space between your thumb and finger looks. Instead of inches you will see feet.

Now here is the $64.00 question. "WHICH WAY is RIGHT?" Pete's way or my way. In reality we are both right. We just take lead in a different way. There is no right or wrong here. We all have a natural way to take lead. For those of you who said Pete was right, you would only be half right. For those of you who said that I am right you would only be half right. I estimate that if we looked at all shooters there would be close to an even split among them when it comes to the way we see lead. This is why I never suggest lead length in feet or inches. I just tell my students to put a very small lead on the target and if they miss then double what they see. (To a point) When I think they are in front of a target I have them to cut what the see by 1/3. Most people will find their perceived lead with this suggestion. Of course, as I always mention this is just my opinion.

Mike McAlpine
The Clay Target Academy


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:48 pm 
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Mike McAlpine wrote:
As I have mentioned before, there are two ways that people see lead. First Pete's way, in inches or other small increments. The lead reference is taken off the end of the muzzle. For those of you who see lead this way, Pete's method is great and works fine. Buy his book.

If you see lead in longer measurements such as feet, you take your reference from the target. Because when looking at the target to determine lead you are looking a lot farther out than the muzzle thus your leads will look longer. Try this to prove what I am saying. Using your thumb and the pointing finger measure what looks to be one inch. Next while holding you gun in the shoulder pocket with your leading hand, see what this one inch looks like at the end of the muzzle. The distance will look small because your eyes are looking at a small distance. Now, using the same one inch with you fingers pick something at say 50 yards and see how far the space between your thumb and finger looks. Instead of inches you will see feet.
Well said Mike! This should be pinned for future reference.
Now here is the $64.00 question. "WHICH WAY is RIGHT?" Pete's way or my way. In reality we are both right. We just take lead in a different way. There is no right or wrong here. We all have a natural way to take lead. For those of you who said Pete was right, you would only be half right. For those of you who said that I am right you would only be half right. I estimate that if we looked at all shooters there would be close to an even split among them when it comes to the way we see lead. This is why I never suggest lead length in feet or inches. I just tell my students to put a very small lead on the target and if they miss then double what they see. (To a point) When I think they are in front of a target I have them to cut what the see by 1/3. Most people will find their perceived lead with this suggestion. Of course, as I always mention this is just my opinion.

Mike McAlpine
The Clay Target Academy

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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 1477
Mike,
As I explain in the book, taking reference for the correct amount of lead out there at the target is more difficult because of the phenomenum of perspective that why most coaches are always tell us "one shooters 3 feet is another shooters 6 feet." I agree. That's why I wrote the UL book because IMO it is easier to see lead in some increment at the muzzle.

Some of you may like to try this. Put two sticks in the middle of a field about 6 feet apart and about 40 yards away. Ask six shooters how far apart they think the sticks are and my guess is that you will get wildly conflicting answers ie. one will say 6 feet, 8 feet 10 feet etc. Then ask the same shooters to hold their finger and thumb at arms length an inch apart and I think they will all be pretty close.

So what Mike says is correct:- we are both 50% right. But for the new shooters I believe seeing lead at the muzzle is the easiest way and by doing this most of my shooters can break 75% on an average difficulty SC course in about 5-6 hours of picking a shotgun up. Most can break 40 yard crossers within the first 2 hours.


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:51 am
Posts: 786
When asking a shooter how much lead did it take to break it. Answer-- I don't know-- I just look at the target and it breaks. So whatever way is used, as long it breaks who cares, and one way isn't easier than the other.....


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Location: Fresno,CA
Spot on Mike...very well said.

Dan

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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:55 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:15 am
Posts: 58
Pete

"It works in exactly the same way as using the barrel as a reference point to see lead out in feet out there at the target works."

I just don't get it.

If taking reference for the lead from the barrel or from the target is the same what is the deal here? Why to use one over the other.

What I understand is when you take reference from the target the focus is on the target. When you take reference from the barrel the focus switches to the barrel, which i think is bad.

You can't see inches if you focus on the target because the barrel is "foggy" and positioned out of visual focus.

Please explain.


Mike :

" I just tell my students to put a very small lead on the target and if they miss then double what they see. (To a point) When I think they are in front of a target I have them to cut what the see by 1/3.

What your students change to double the lead or to cut the lead??

How they do that ?


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:05 pm 
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holdpoint wrote:
" I just tell my students to put a very small lead on the target and if they miss then double what they see. (To a point) When I think they are in front of a target I have them to cut what the see by 1/3.

What your students change to double the lead or to cut the lead??

How they do that ?

I don't want to speak for Mike, but it's the degree of perception. So if they are seeing a 1/2" lead, he's telling them you need double that. If the shooter is seeing 6 feet of lead, he is telling them they need 12 feet. It's really a deviation of Peter's Unit Lead, in effect. Some people say "a little, some, a lot", some people quantify it with UL. It's just putting a quantity on "more lead".

This is the #1 reason you have to mesh with your coach. If you understand your coach, the relationship will flourish.



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