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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:26 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 1512
holdpoint. Perhaps shot-gunning isn't your game?




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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:32 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 pm
Posts: 687
pete blakeley wrote:
holdpoint. Perhaps shot-gunning isn't your game?


I'm a terrible shot but I get what you all are teaching. I can't say I know what style will work for me, I think I'm referencing lead at the target more because mostly I have had coaching that uses target widths based on the target.

I will have to try your method to see if that helps or it may simply not work for me. But just because it doesn't work for me well doesn't me it doesn't work at all!

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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:32 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 pm
Posts: 687
pete blakeley wrote:
holdpoint. Perhaps shot-gunning isn't your game?


I'm a terrible shot but I get what you all are teaching. I can't say I know what style will work for me, I think I'm referencing lead at the target more because mostly I have had coaching that uses target widths based on the target.

I will have to try your method to see if that helps or it may simply not work for me. But just because it doesn't work for me well doesn't me it doesn't work at all!

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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:04 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:29 pm
Posts: 1678
Location: Central Maine
pete blakeley wrote:
holdpoint. Perhaps shot-gunning isn't your game?


I can't say this is the case for holdpoint or not. My read is that he may just be way more anylitical than many of us and is searching for a more detailed explanation that makes sense to him.

Lead and its perception is hard to explain to someone else that sees differently, finds the target in a different place or perceives it differently all together.

After 8 plus years shooting a pretty high volume of targets there are still plenty of times that I don't get the results on long or fast or freaking fast long crossers that I want. My personal experience is that most of the time I have underestimated speed and distance and am behind the target. I prescribe to the recommendation to add more lead and in the case of the freaking fast crossers to make sure I provide enough gun speed as well.

For me, it is rare for me to miss in front of the target. Unfortunately I also often know as soon as I trigger the shot that I didn't give it enough on a long target and miss behind. It is then on me to adjust on the next pair and give the shot charge a chance to get to the target.

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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:14 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 1512
Show me. I posted some skeet ULs on here for you. Did they work? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:32 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:16 am
Posts: 1862
Pete,

I guess what I am trying to say is that seeing lead is different for different people; Like what method a shooter uses without thought is their natural way. The same goes taking lead from the muzzle or the target. They are both right and each shooter should use what is natural with them. If their natural method doesn't work, I have no problem in suggesting something else but I never force the issue.

Mike McAlpine


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:40 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 1512
Mike,

Nor do I. I'm sure you explain lead to your students in a logical way, but many coaches can't. There's not much point in a student repeatedly missing a 50 yard chandelle and all his coach can come up with is "you're not looking hard enough at the target". Lessons are expensive, IMO the shooters paying for them deserve specifics, don't you think?

Pete Blakeley.


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:02 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:15 am
Posts: 73
I enjoy the love dance between Pete and Mike but non of them give answers to what I believe is an issue when talking about lead.

Pete
you said :
"It works in exactly the same way as using the barrel as a reference point to see lead out in feet out there at the target works."

I asked :

"If taking reference for the lead from the barrel or from the target is the same what is the deal here? Why to use one over the other.

What I understand is when you take reference from the target the focus is on the target. When you take reference from the barrel the focus switches to the barrel, which i think is bad.

You can't see inches if you focus on the target because the barrel is "foggy" and positioned out of visual focus."

...and you gave me this:

"holdpoint. Perhaps shot-gunning isn't your game?"


Please don't pretend to be a coach. Shot gunning it may not be my game yet, but the coaching is not you business for sure.

My game right now is the logic to understand correctly the issues. This why I put Q's

I would never take a lesson from you with such attitude.

maris 89 thank you for you input but I know how to double a figure.

I was referring to what changes the shooter does if is short on lead or have to cut the lead if is too long with it. Ex: push the hands to get bigger lead , turn his stance, or what??

It must be a reason for that short or long lead.


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:40 am 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 1872
holdpoint ,
Your last couple of sentences make no sense at all , highlighting your confusion.
Perhaps you should spend less time being analytical at the keyboard and actually get out on the range having a lesson off a competent coach, it will be money well spent.
Here is an example of how confusing this topic can be .
I have a friend whose Son is a rising star in Olympic Skeet , training with the British Olympians with a scholarship. He also does recreational Sporting Clays and struggles with distance targets.
His Father , a frustrated no hoper at Sporting Clays berates his Son and often reduces him to tears.
The Son explained " I just do not see lead".
I think an inherent problem is that Skeet shooters get accustomed to the 'no lead' or 'little lead ' syndrome .
So when they get to shoot 30 yard , 40 & 50 yard crossers they have no real comprehension of lead out there at the target.
The actual answer to the problem is , familiarity with required lead for the target and muzzle control of your gun. I never advocate barrel watching , but you do need to be aware of where your muzzles are and your speed of swing . Basically it took me a long time to say 'Gun Control'.


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:04 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:15 am
Posts: 73
Salopian, please highlight what is confusing in my request to get some explanations.

How confusing is this for me:

"holdpoint. Perhaps shot-gunning isn't your game?"

How I see, you join the dance.


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:39 am 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 1872
I was referring to what changes the shooter does if is short on lead or have to cut the lead if is too long with it. Ex: push the hands to get bigger lead , turn his stance, or what??

It must be a reason for that short or long lead.


Not very well written , holdpoint .

As I said , go and get a lesson with a competent coach , they will instantly put you right and address any issues you may have .
With all the best will on Earth , it is difficult to coach over the internet.

DO NOT get involved in tit for tat arguing with anyone , some want to help , some want to sell you their product , your the buyer you decide .
Me ? I just love shooting and helping out anyone if I can.


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:52 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:15 am
Posts: 73
Salopian thanks for help.

I rephrase:

If the instructor tells you to double the lead how you double it?

You will push harder your hands to get bigger lead ??

How you get a smaller lead by slowing down the gun or what?

In other words what you do technically to realize that

What I have to change?


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:29 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:21 pm
Posts: 263
Have over 50 shotgun books Peter Blakeley’s is the one I recommend explaining the geometry behind lead and a practical method for applying lead. I also believe Mike McAlpines post are some of the best available

Bass


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:18 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 1512
holdpoint. Regardless of the well meaning advice you get on here from me, Mike, Salopian or any others you will not learn to shoot unless you get out there and actually do it. Find yourself a good coach.


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:35 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:15 am
Posts: 73
Pete, why you are not answering to my question?t

How you want people to believe you if you avoid answering.

I will go tomorrow in the shooting range to try your Unit lead how works based on what I see on the internet.

I expect answers from Mike also.

You are considered "pros" so I expect pros answers.


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:44 am 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Posts: 17258
Location: wilton.ct.us
holdpoint wrote:
Salopian thanks for help.

I rephrase:

If the instructor tells you to double the lead how you double it?

There are many ways to generate the required lead. It kind of depends on how you are shooting the bird.

If you were using pull-away, you could generate the lead at the insertion point. Instead of inserting on the target and pulling away, one would insert some space and continue the same pull away move. Or, one could utilize a longer pull away window if the target allows it. Or both.

If you were using MMS, you would mount more space on the target.

If you were using diminishing lead (which would probably be suicidal on a "far" crossing target), you would not let the gap close as much before you started to move.

If you were using swing through (which would also be suicidal on a "far" crossing target, IMHO), you would generate more gun speed by moving your hands quicker and probably getting out of control faster.

If you were maintaining this target, you would mount more space at the insertion point and match the speed of the target.

So, it depends.

For me, the most successful method on a far 90 degree target is pull away. I would insert some space on the target and execute my pull away move. If I missed it I would insert a little more space and stick with the bird to pull away longer (if the target allowed).

Disclaimer: I am not a pro, but I can hit a 35 yard crossing target.

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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:48 am 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:16 am
Posts: 1862
Pete,

As I have said before, I think you are a great coach and know your stuff. While we may thinks a little different on some things we do agree on most things. You are right when you talked about a coach who can't explain his thoughts and just tells his students that they are behind, over under, in front and doesn't explain why. In my mind any good shooters can do that. I always ask myself these questions when coaching someone. When they miss, I ask where did they miss, why did they miss and how do I fix the problem. For me this is very simple. (I imagine it is for you too) As for your and Salopian's comments about information received on the internet I agree 100% that the person should invest in a experienced coach. One with a proven track record. I am not just talking about champions coached but how all levels of shooters did after taking a lesson or lessons. I also agree that a good shooter is not made from one lesson with anyone. Learning to shoot a clay target is learned over time and practice plus failure and success.

Mike McAlpine

Hey,

I didn't know we were doing a "Love dance" hell, I don't even like you. (Just kidding of course) :lol: {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:52 am 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Posts: 17258
Location: wilton.ct.us
Mike McAlpine wrote:
Learning to shoot a clay target is learned over time and practice plus failure and success.


And sometimes it's failure, failure, failure, failure, AHA! I GET IT! I LOVE THIS GAME!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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NSCA: 557876
"Both Texas Tiger and Marist summarized proper pull away very well in the first two replys to your question." -- ZKienbaum
#MMUSOpen2019 #TheForkUSOpen2021 #marist89ForAC


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:23 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:14 pm
Posts: 223
holdpoint wrote:
Pete, why you are not answering to my question?t

I expect answers from Mike also.

You are considered "pros" so I expect pros answers.



Highly amused by the mental image of you stamping your foot as you typed those words...


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 Post subject: Re: Very very fast crosser at 35 yards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:41 pm 
*Proud to be a*
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Do not feed this troll. :roll:



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