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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:07 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:28 pm
Posts: 1119
JacksBack wrote:
Re FITASC, where I shoot the 15 second rule is currently enforced. The target difficulty guidlines remain only for World Cup events. Only a few crumudgeonly older refs won’t give you 20 if you’re having extraction issues. The extra time could be an issue at a big blast and I could see where you’d get called for repeated offenses.


Jack I’ll show you the email from NSCA this week.




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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:55 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:35 pm
Posts: 789
No it's not legal to throw a new target in a double!


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 Post subject: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:27 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:28 pm
Posts: 1119
Syreel wrote:
No it's not legal to throw a new target in a double!


I have shot it this way in the US before, and they said its ok if we show it to you. Under World Cup rules its not legal per 2.5.2. But here we go again and again I will ask the NSCA about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:47 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:35 pm
Posts: 789
The NSCA does not write the Fitasc rules! Fitasc Paris does!


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:46 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:48 pm
Posts: 1914
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Many people are afraid to use "some" choke when shooting subscribing to the spray and pray way of thinking. Some things I have taken away from shooting Fitasc: Use Mod choke or tighter and 1 Oz of shot is all you will ever need for sporting clays period! I also like 7.5 shot because it will break all the targets at all the distances.

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NSCA # 606314
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687 EELL 20/28 GA
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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:46 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:17 am
Posts: 828
The rule was changed by Paris early last year and they sent out letters/emails. I changed it in our rule book along with one or two other minor things and must have re-sent the older version to HQ. I have no idea how I nor anyone else noticed it until now. The rule is 15 seconds.

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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:52 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:28 pm
Posts: 1119
rbrown2012 wrote:
The rule was changed by Paris early last year and they sent out letters/emails. I changed it in our rule book along with one or two other minor things and must have re-sent the older version to HQ. I have no idea how I nor anyone else noticed it until now. The rule is 15 seconds.


We need to update our online rule book, I was just advised last last week its still 20 seconds between.


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:04 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:28 pm
Posts: 1119
[quote="Syreel"]The NSCA does not write the Fitasc rules! Fitasc Paris does![/quote

Yes thank you, we in the Colonies understand that. The NSCA still rules most of our shoots and where the problem is they have a minor couple of things that they say only applies to a World Cup shoot, one is this 15 sec. vs 20 sec. between shots, RB just clarified that it should be 15.


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:36 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:35 pm
Posts: 789
8) Perhaps you can explain why America needs a different set of rules for Fitasc to the rest of the World?


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:17 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:29 pm
Posts: 420
Syreel
" To the victors go the spoils " . We have a hard time not being in charge!!


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:17 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:29 pm
Posts: 420
Syreel
" To the victors go the spoils " . We have a hard time not being in charge!!


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:39 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:35 pm
Posts: 789
:lol: Ain't that the truth Jim?
8) 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:29 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:28 pm
Posts: 1119
Syreel wrote:
8) Perhaps you can explain why America needs a different set of rules for Fitasc to the rest of the World?


We don’t need a different set in case you haven’t figured it out our rule book did not get updated with the last Fitasc revisions. As far as my World Cup comment read the statement pg 55 2.5.1 trajectories in heavy black ink. As far as my statement on singles may not need to be shot before presenting in doubles. Its a question because if the chart about A,B,C only applies to World Cup in the US, Does 2.5.2 not also apply because it speaks to the A,B,C trajectories? If so unless I overlooked it I find nothing else in our book that states “doubles must be shot at targets already launched as a single”. As far as why we like to be different its fun sometimes!! Right or wrong this is the rule book we have down here, I’m just trying to get it updated and clarified.


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:33 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:40 am
Posts: 123
FITASC Sporting rule changes are normally voted in at the executive meeting held usually on the Monday before the World Championships. In the case of the 15 sec rule this was passed in July 16 and appeared in the rule book on the FITASC web site in Oct. 16 for start of Jan.17.

Unsure of exactly when the ABC table appeared but its in the 2008 rule book.
Its all quite subjective anyway, depending who sets and vets the targets.

Interestingly going back to the 1991 rule book
Quote:
2.21 Only targets having already been fired at as singles may be shot at as 'report' pairs.
No mention of not being able to introduce a new target/targets for rafaele/simo pairs!!

To be fair when it comes to the format for 'ordinary' events, several countries do not strictly adhere to rule books . In the UK sometimes a 5 X 20 bird layout will be used in winter to get 12 squads through in 8 Hours because light is going at 16.00. Cyril was a pioneer of the hybrid system of 1 new style peg & 2 old style pegs which allows squads to finish every 30 minutes allowing more shooters through in a day. In Australia and NZ they shoot more combinations from their traps to make the most of their resources. None of which are allowed for in the rule book.

Regards

Leigh


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:30 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:16 am
Posts: 1835
As a long time target setter with a lot of courses under my belt, I truly believe that the target setter should set the type of presentations that he believes will be the best at certain tournaments. Someone mentioned that a great target setter can set a course and be able to predict the HOA within two or so birds. That is if the setter is aware of the top shooters who are there. After years of setting targets I find that I can usually do this.

When I set a course I asked the shoot management what degree of difficulty they want. Over the years at NSC I have set both the AA, Master FITASC and the A through E course. I always slightly soften my A though E course based on the difficulty of the AA Master course. The reason being, A through E shooters are not normally as skilled as the two upper classes. This is because many of them haven't shot as many targets as the other shooters in the upper two classes.

There are several reasons that I set a slightly easier course for the A through E. I don't want these shooters to come off the course and be disillusioned by very low scores. I want them to enjoy their FITASC experience. I also want them to work to get better and shoot with the more experienced shooters. Most of the target setters that I have trained over the years want to test the shooters skill and not their luck. I find that some long presentation on a course will always increase the WOW Factor, even on an A through E course. When setting one of these kind of targets (on the A-E) I tend to leave the muzzle set up for the second bird. This helps the shooter some and will let them break a little higher score. With the other two classes I will set a presentation or two that looks very easy but for shooters who take this pair for granted will do poorly. They walk off the station kicking their self. Two words I always like to hear from my shooters in either group is FUN and WOW. If I hear these words and follow my basic target setting rules, I think I have done a good job.


Mike McAlpine
Longtime Target Setter

Ps I never try to beat my shooters. I just want to test their ability.

Several times in my career I have had a vetting committees look at my targets and tell me that a presentation is either too hard or two easy. I am offended if the person is not a top setter and doesn't understand why I set certain presentations. I have had lower class shooters who are on this type of committee jump me about presentations when they really don't have a clue about target setting. This just doesn't make sense. The club or tournament director has hired me to set targets. The only thing a vetting committee should ever do is look for safety problems and sun shots!!!!!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:34 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:35 pm
Posts: 789
8) I totally agree Mike to your last statement! If you are a International target setter who,is qualified to inspect your targets and alter them? Yes by all means view them for safety and vision. but a target setter who knows his job has already done this!


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:23 am 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:16 am
Posts: 1835
Syreel,

I had a real problem at the Texas State shoot two years ago. I was hired by the club to set the Prelim and one of the mains. After the owner and I reviewed the Prelim, I found that one station could have a wind problem if the wind shifted during the shoot. I told the owner that I was going to change the station the day before the shoot. I had to return home for a day and would turn right around and reset this station. When I got back I told the owner that I was going to reset the station. He told me that it had already been done. This pissed me off since this was MY Course and should not have been messed with without me there. I thought the vetting committee had made the change since I was told they would be looking at the targets.

I had faxed the club my list of menus and had changed this station from a true pair to a report pair just to allow for a possible wind change. I was also going to move one trap that was throwing an overhead target and make it an outgoing target from the front of the stand. The second bird was a 55 yard looping belly shot that took a little time to get to the breakpoint window. When I got there the menus had been placed at the stands. It was set as a true pair and the machine had not been moved. I later found out the two of the mechanics had taken it on their selves to make the change and not the vetting committee. I asked the club to reprint the menu so I could change it to a
a report pair. When I got there the next morning and was checking my courses I found that the change hadn't been made I went to the clubhouse to get the new menu and before I got back the first squad had shot and the second squad was starting. Too late to change anything.

As I had predicted the wind changed and the overhead bird was hitting a tree line. I hoped we would make it through the day but when I went to get my menus for the next rotation the owner jumped me. I tried to work this out but the more I tried to explain what happened the madder he got. He told me that I could pack my bags and get off the property. I asked him if he was sure that he really wanted me to leave. Before he answered the past president of TSCA stepped in and talked to the owner and he said that we would see after the shoot was over. This was in front of about 50 shooters and office help. I should have left but was talked out of it by several of the people who were there. Needless to say that I won't ever set targets there again even if asked.

Mike McAlpine

By the way, many people told me theses were the best targets they had ever shot. The same thing happened on my main course. I guess these same people told the club owner the same thing because at the Saturday night party the owner got up and told the crowd that he had so many compliments about my two courses that he felt he should recognize me. This made it a lot better but did not completely heal my wounds because of another two problems with the owner the next day. Neither one was caused by me. I have made mistakes setting targets that were my fault and I have always taken responsibility for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:27 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:35 pm
Posts: 789
Wholeheartedly agree with you Mike! Sometimes you have to stand up and take the medicine ! Other times you can get crap for someone else's mistakes! But we love the job! I bet you won't retire in Bermuda on your wages?


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:07 am 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:16 am
Posts: 1835
Syreel,

You know, I have been talking about retiring but the cost of my copays on my prescription drugs will keep me from ever doing so. And you are right about Bermuda. Maybe I can get caught in the Bermuda Triangle and things will be cheaper. :lol: With my luck they wouldn't have sporting there and I might have to become a lawyer. Sorry Sera. This was the first job that came to mind. {hs# Syreel, Is it cheaper to live in the UK and are the drugs less expensive? If so, maybe my wife and I could move in with you. Are you married and have lots of money? :P

Mike McAlpine

Wanted!!!! Looking for a "Sugar Momma" It's getting too hot here in Texas standing on the roadside with my sign. I don't need a picture, just a bank statement. 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Target difficulty
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:16 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:35 pm
Posts: 789
:lol: Mike, I don't pay for drugs because I have paid in for 45 years to the government! As for cheaper to live here I couldn't say off the top of my head?
Yeah I got lots of money setting targets for people who didn't want the job or to pay me after I done it!




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