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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:23 pm 
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So what you are saying is just shoot any shell it won't matter? Really?



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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:53 pm 
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When I fell to break a target, I am reasonably sure it wasn’t because of the shot size or choke.
I don’t give it a second thought. I’m just happy to be shooting.

Doug


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:00 am 
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I've demonstrated to my own satisfaction numerous times that shot size and choke DOES matter on many presentations. There's nothing wrong with just shooting for fun and enjoying the experience, but some shooters want to break as many targets as possible... particularly the ones that they point and shoot correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:59 am 
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1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. of 7 1/2 shot @ 1200 FPS or above, will break any target from 0 yards out to as far as any target thrown in any NSCA competition.

The working or effective core of any pattern from any choke once you get to 20/25 yards is between 18" and maybe 23". After that yardage the only thing that the choke is doing is controlling how dense that core pattern is.

My idea is this.....I want to break every target that I properly center. If folks want to take chances with smaller pellet sizes and more open chokes in hopes that pattern density will break the target, be my guest.

Any clay target sport is based on how well you can center a target, that means centering that 20" effective core on the target. Playing games with chokes, pellet sizes and loads is playing with the 6" between the ears and hoping that when you screw up the pattern is big enough to break the target. It isn't and you won't.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:33 pm 
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dogchaser37 wrote:
Any clay target sport is based on how well you can center a target...


If by "based" you mean "scored", then you must shoot some different clay target games from what I shoot. All the games I've ever shot (or even know about) are scored on number of targets that you break a visible piece from, not on how many targets you can center (however that might be defined). On the score card, a chipped target looks and counts exactly the same as a smoked target.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:43 pm 
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dogchaser37 wrote:
Playing games with chokes, pellet sizes and loads is playing with the 6" between the ears and hoping that when you screw up the pattern is big enough to break the target. It isn't and you won't.


Is a skeet shooter who uses Cylinder or Skeet chokes and #9 shot playing games? Is the trap shooter who uses IM or Full choke and #7.5 shot from the 27 yard line playing games?

I don't think so. I think they're simply doing what experience has shown them works best to put the most X's on the score card for the shot presentations they are faced with.

I see no reason why a sporting clays shooter couldn't or shouldn't follow the example of guys who routinely break 97% or more of their targets.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:18 pm 
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You can argue this all you want, but if you honestly go out and do the patterning work, you will understand why folks use fixed chokes of mod/mod or mod/imod with 7 1/2's and break scores in the 90's on a regular basis to win the big shoots.

When you use tight chokes, you already have that dense effective pattern using 7 1/2's. Using 8's or 8.5's will certainly make the pattern denser but when you already have a pattern that is capable of breaking the target when centered adding more pellets isn't going to change much except lower the pellet energy. Why anyone would want to lower pellet energy is beyond me. When you come to the realization that choke controls the pattern density of the effective pattern and not the size of the effective pattern you will be on the way to figuring the choke/load part out.

The common belief is that at 25 yards a skeet choke has a larger pattern than a modified choke. That is technically true, but you are talking 3" to 4" of effective pattern MAYBE. What folks believe is that a skeet choke pattern at 25 yards is 30" in diameter and that a modified choke has a 20" pattern at 25 yards. That is untrue, there is no such thing as a 30" effective pattern not even with 1 1/8 oz. load of #9 shot. Even if if a shotgun threw a perfectly even pattern there are not enough pellets to fill out a 30" pattern. Further pellets bleed off the effective pattern core and not in a linear fashion. Once a pellet has left the core it leaves the 30" circle quickly.

You don't have to believe me just go and pattern a shotgun the correct way, count the pellets in the 21" core and the 21" to 30" annular ring and figure the central thickening ratio and do this at different yardages shooting at least 5 patterns each. It will change your mind about changing chokes and using 8.5's on 40 yard targets.

What it will also do is take your excuses away, because now you can't say that you had the wrong choke in or you used the wrong pellet size for sporting clays.

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Last edited by dogchaser37 on Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:42 pm 
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I doubt that the chokes make THAT much difference to those folks like Wendell, Zach, et al. I suspect they could shoot FITASC with SK chokes and still whup up on 95% of us.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:47 pm 
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You are correct oneounceload, but they don't use skeet chokes. Why? Because they want to break every target that they properly center.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:20 pm 
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dogchaser37 wrote:
1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. of 7 1/2 shot @ 1200 FPS or above, will break any target from 0 yards out to as far as any target thrown in any NSCA competition.

The working or effective core of any pattern from any choke once you get to 20/25 yards is between 18" and maybe 23". After that yardage the only thing that the choke is doing is controlling how dense that core pattern is.

My idea is this.....I want to break every target that I properly center. If folks want to take chances with smaller pellet sizes and more open chokes in hopes that pattern density will break the target, be my guest.

Any clay target sport is based on how well you can center a target, that means centering that 20" effective core on the target. Playing games with chokes, pellet sizes and loads is playing with the 6" between the ears and hoping that when you screw up the pattern is big enough to break the target. It isn't and you won't.


Mark,
I am in agreement. I'm in the fixed choke camp, though my current gun has a slightly more open choke in the nonselectable bottom barrel than I would prefer. I use 1-1/8 7.5's at everything because of this in order to fill the pattern. If I had a tighter bottom barrel, I would stay with a 1 oz 7.5.
One thing I will add: shot quality has everything to do with pattern size. I use shells with the hardest shot I can find- Currently Aguila's which have 5% antimony in all their target loads. Clever T2's and up, Win AA's, Remington Nitros just to name a few make a major difference after 35+ yards.Within 35 yards, any shell will suffice.

I messaged Zack Kienbaum on facebook regarding shot size as he uses 8's and 7.5's. I asked what determines when he switches shot size. He and Rollins Brown were kind enough to share their thoughts. Here's Zach's reply:

" Zachary Kienbaum The profile of the target determines shot size for me. Show me belly and it’s getting an 8 as well as most anything within 30 yards. Edge and dome get 7.5s especially at distance. Wind over 15 or so mph will get me reaching for more 7.5s as well."

When Zach was asked about 7.5's for everything:

"Zachary Kienbaum If you’re trying to simplify everything then yes. 7.5 works just fine and if I could only carry one size that’s what I’d shoot. Dave asked what I do and I’ve always shot 8s at belly targets because you need less energy and more pellet strikes to break them. There are successful shooters that shoot only 7.5 like DeMichiel, Radulovich, and Cherry and there are others who shoot mostly 8s like Matarese and Vine."

And here's what Rollins Brown added:

"Rollins Brown · 21 mutual friends
Zachary Kienbaum asked me to reply with my new “theory”. It’s not really that new, but I’ve been doing some testing lately. First, AC Jones found that shot size does NOT change pattern size. Only shot hardness and choke affect pattern size. So switching to a smaller shot size doesn’t increase your pattern size given a particular choke.

Zach and I and others have been theorizing for a few years that 32g doesn’t break more targets than 28g. You just break them harder with more pellets, but the pattern size is the same."

And Rollin's conclusion:

"Rollins Brown · 21 mutual friends
My conclusion is that if you shoot mod/mod or tighter, there isn’t any advantage in shooting anything other than 28gr 7.5s. If you shoot cylinder, skeet, IC, light mod (approx) then you MAY need to fill your pattern in at the middle distances.....25-45 yards. So in that case 8s-9s may make some sense. I tend to shoot crappy when shooting less than 25/25 (as evidenced by the last two months) so it’s all 1oz 7.5s for me"


Good luck in your decision.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:40 pm 
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Dr A.C. Jones has done some very good work that basically backed up the work done by E.D. Lowry of Olin Winchester. Mr. Lowry made a CD Shotshell Ballistics for Windows and shows pattern after pattern showing how far away from center of the pattern you can get using different loads, chokes and distances before the pattern is going to let you down. For the stuff we do in sporting that is about 9" - 11" away from the center of the pattern.

I learned it 20 years ago playing with .015" of choke and tighter and patterning for trap.

Unfortunately I had to relearn it for sporting clays. :lol: :lol: :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:52 pm 
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If the gun is pointed in the right place when the trigger is pulled, the clay will break
Not putting the gun the right place is the cause of more missed targets than the shot size, weight of shell, or choke
They just give you more reasons not to admit you failed to put the gun in the right place and they won't correct placement errors


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:11 pm 
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If the gun is pointed in the right place when the trigger is pulled, the clay will break

You guys keep saying if you are on the target, if you shoot where the target is, and if you are on it it will break.

All that is true and if it worked like that all the time you could shoot the clays with a .22. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:48 pm 
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dogchaser37 wrote:
You don't have to believe me just go and pattern a shotgun the correct way, count the pellets in the 21" core and the 21" to 30" annular ring and figure the central thickening ratio and do this at different yardages shooting at least 5 patterns each. It will change your mind about changing chokes and using 8.5's on 40 yard targets.


Nice strawman argument there. :roll: :roll: The only problem is that no one has advocated using #8.5's at 40 yards, so that comment is totally irrelevant. Why not address the REAL issue? If a shooter has a 20 yard crosser, he can use #8.5 shot through a skeet choke that has more energy per pellet than a #7.5 at 40 yards, have a larger pattern than a Mod at 20 yards, and have about 38% more pellets in his pattern than the #7.5 load.

If a #7.5 load through a Mod choke is adequate at 40 yards, then a #8.5 load through a Skeet choke at 20 yards is even better because it has more energy per pellet, a larger pattern, and considerably more pellets in the pattern.

I'm still waiting to find out what clay target game scores hits based on centering the target and how they measure or judge this "centering". I'm also still curious why you don't address the question of skeet shooters using the wrong (presumably, according to you) chokes and loads for their 20 yard game. Could it be that maybe they know more about what is best to use on 20 yard targets than you claim to know?

I've got one more question for you (not that you're likely to answer it, but I'm going to ask anyway). What, in your opinion, is the optimum size pattern for a load of #7.5 shot and at what distance would your Mod choke deliver this pattern? Feel free to explain as fully as you like.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:32 pm 
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KRIEGHOFFK80 wrote:
If the gun is pointed in the right place when the trigger is pulled, the clay will break

You guys keep saying if you are on the target, if you shoot where the target is, and if you are on it it will break.

All that is true and if it worked like that all the time you could shoot the clays with a .22. :lol:


{hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:39 pm 
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You can talk about 20yd targets. But the majority thrown are 30-40 yards. Sure, I would use all 8.5 if max yardage is under 30 yards. Keeping things simple is why many just use 7.5 because it can break all targets to the distances thrown.


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:40 am 
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Where I shoot, targets will range from 5 to 50 yards. 8.5s, work great for those edgy in your face incomers or the soft all belly loping curlers at 25 yards

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:59 am 
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An NSCA hall-of-famer once said and I quote: Choke gains you inches, people tend to miss in feet

Now.. by people, I'm assuming he was referring to the average shooter here, but his point makes sense.

Put in #8 or 7.5. Change chokes for the extremes leave a .015 or .020 in for everything else.

My 2 cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:22 pm 
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birdshooter wrote:
An NSCA hall-of-famer once said and I quote: Choke gains you inches, people tend to miss in feet

Now.. by people, I'm assuming he was referring to the average shooter here, but his point makes sense.

Put in #8 or 7.5. Change chokes for the extremes leave a .015 or .020 in for everything else.

My 2 cents.


What do you consider an "extreme" and what do you put in for it?

If you talk with enough top shooters, you could probably find one who agrees with any point you want to make regarding chokes and shot sizes... just depending on when you talk with him. But that's not really the point here.

Why do you think that all misses are measured in feet (other than the fact that some anonymous top shooter said so)? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Sure, some shooters will miss some targets by 2 or 3 feet or more... particularly newbies shooting really tough targets. But in some cases, a shooter will miss only by a few inches. So, if having the correct choke in place gained a shooter only 1 target out of every 20 targets that he attempts, that's an extra 5 targets per 100. How many times would you like to have another 5 X's on your score card? Heck, many times just ONE extra X can make a significant difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:46 pm 
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Ulysses wrote:
birdshooter wrote:
An NSCA hall-of-famer once said and I quote: Choke gains you inches, people tend to miss in feet

Now.. by people, I'm assuming he was referring to the average shooter here, but his point makes sense.

Put in #8 or 7.5. Change chokes for the extremes leave a .015 or .020 in for everything else.

My 2 cents.


What do you consider an "extreme" and what do you put in for it?

If you talk with enough top shooters, you could probably find one who agrees with any point you want to make regarding chokes and shot sizes... just depending on when you talk with him. But that's not really the point here.

Why do you think that all misses are measured in feet (other than the fact that some anonymous top shooter said so)? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Sure, some shooters will miss some targets by 2 or 3 feet or more... particularly newbies shooting really tough targets. But in some cases, a shooter will miss only by a few inches. So, if having the correct choke in place gained a shooter only 1 target out of every 20 targets that he attempts, that's an extra 5 targets per 100. How many times would you like to have another 5 X's on your score card? Heck, many times just ONE extra X can make a significant difference.


Semantics...

Personally, my extreme would be under 20 yard and over 50. Regarding under 20 I may put in something like a cylinder or skeet if faced with a very close bird or rabbit if I feel rushed or a presentation with a quick window. If I have time I may not change at all, if you rush me I may change. Generally, I can point more accurately when you give me time.

If you wish to argue the gain you inches and miss by feet I can PM you the name of the Hall of famer who quoted it and you can ask him personally his reasoning in the matter.



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