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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Changing shot size just gives me another reason to have brain farts. Which is why I have more choke and bigger shot size , so I never doubt my equipment. The miss needs to be on you for you to ever get better. If you can blame the gun , choke , shell , shot size , you will.



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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:08 pm 
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It's not "semantics" at all. You're saying that if a shooter misses a target it's by feet and I'm saying that many misses among average shooters on average difficulty targets will by inches. Those are substantive differences in viewpoints, not just semantics.

Why don't you PM the top shooter who told you that and ask him to present his views and reasoning on here and then we can all see the responses and logic and judge for ourselves. I don't doubt that someone told you that. I'm just saying that it doesn't stand to reason in my opinion.

Have you ever played or watched a high school or college basketball game? Most of these players wouldn't be considered as "pros" but yet some are pretty good in their shooting ability. Some may hit 30% to 60% of their overall shots from the floor which is pretty decent, but even the ones they don't make, they usually are pretty close and bounce the ball off the rim. Sure, you see an occasional air-ball, but that's the exception. So why should shooting a basketball at a basket be any different than shooting a shotgun at a clay target as far as misses are concerned? Generally speaking, if they don't hit their shot, they're pretty darn close. Same is true in sporting clays among semi-skilled shooters.

I think it would be interesting to know how many of the shooters at the recent All-Around competition used Mod and IM chokes on the American Skeet field. I'd say very few!

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:17 pm 
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sera wrote:
Changing shot size just gives me another reason to have brain farts. Which is why I have more choke and bigger shot size , so I never doubt my equipment. The miss needs to be on you for you to ever get better. If you can blame the gun , choke , shell , shot size , you will.


That's strange! My thinking is just the opposite. If I shoot the entire course with one set of chokes such as LM and Mod, at the end I'll be blaming some of my misses on not having the correct choke for the presentation. However, if I select the chokes I want and the shot size I want before shooting each station, that takes away any excuse I might have and puts the blame squarely on me.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:42 pm 
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Ulysses wrote:
It's not "semantics" at all. You're saying that if a shooter misses a target it's by feet and I'm saying that many misses among average shooters on average difficulty targets will by inches. Those are substantive differences in viewpoints, not just semantics.

Why don't you PM the top shooter who told you that and ask him to present his views and reasoning on here and then we can all see the responses and logic and judge for ourselves. I don't doubt that someone told you that. I'm just saying that it doesn't stand to reason in my opinion.

Have you ever played or watched a high school or college basketball game? Most of these players wouldn't be considered as "pros" but yet some are pretty good in their shooting ability. Some may hit 30% to 60% of their overall shots from the floor which is pretty decent, but even the ones they don't make, they usually are pretty close and bounce the ball off the rim. Sure, you see an occasional air-ball, but that's the exception. So why should shooting a basketball at a basket be any different than shooting a shotgun at a clay target as far as misses are concerned? Generally speaking, if they don't hit their shot, they're pretty darn close. Same is true in sporting clays among semi-skilled shooters.

I think it would be interesting to know how many of the shooters at the recent All-Around competition used Mod and IM chokes on the American Skeet field. I'd say very few!


I didn't say anything at all. I just reported what someone else said and thought it made sense to ME !

I got a better idea. Since your the one that has a problem with what he said, you get him to come in here and explain himself. Geez.....

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:17 pm 
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Well, if it makes sense to you, then how about taking your best shot at explaining it to me. It just defies logic to think that an average shooter is going to either hit a target most of the time or miss it by several feet on the other times with no "slight" misses along the way. That doesn't happen in any other sport that I know of and I don't think it happens in shotgun clay shooting sports either, but I'm willing to listen to anyone who is willing to present some logic to convince me otherwise. I imagine that there are some readers of this thread that would like to hear/read it too.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:35 pm 
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Ulysses wrote:
Well, if it makes sense to you, then how about taking your best shot at explaining it to me.

I will try, but I don't subscribe to the theory.

For grins, let's say we agree that a shot pattern at distances you are going to shoot a target is anywhere from a 20" to a 40" perfect circle across. Now, I know you will take argument with that just because, well, you know...

Some people, excluding myself, believe that unless you are centering the target, it's not a great hit. I don't necessarily believe that, but let's say for the sake of argument, that a "hit" is in the "center" of that 20" to 40" circle. Therefore, a "miss" is at least 10" off since the center of the circle is at least 10" from the edge of the pattern.

Now, did a flyer of the pattern knick the target and not break it? Even there you're 10" off, according to some people. I would argue in that case, you're more right that you're only a couple inches off. But if no chippy-mc-chippersons come off, you're at least10.00001" off, or pretty close to a foot.

I am not one to revel in my chips, so I like to call that a lucky hit and adjust my movement. I'd rather get a three on three chips rather than three 0s. But I'd rather get one chippy-mc-chipperson and two solid hits. That means I've learned something.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:17 pm 
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marist89 wrote:
Ulysses wrote:
Well, if it makes sense to you, then how about taking your best shot at explaining it to me.

I will try, but I don't subscribe to the theory.

For grins, let's say we agree that a shot pattern at distances you are going to shoot a target is anywhere from a 20" to a 40" perfect circle across. Now, I know you will take argument with that just because, well, you know...

Some people, excluding myself, believe that unless you are centering the target, it's not a great hit. I don't necessarily believe that, but let's say for the sake of argument, that a "hit" is in the "center" of that 20" to 40" circle. Therefore, a "miss" is at least 10" off since the center of the circle is at least 10" from the edge of the pattern.

Now, did a flyer of the pattern knick the target and not break it? Even there you're 10" off, according to some people. I would argue in that case, you're more right that you're only a couple inches off. But if no chippy-mc-chippersons come off, you're at least10.00001" off, or pretty close to a foot.

I am not one to revel in my chips, so I like to call that a lucky hit and adjust my movement. I'd rather get a three on three chips rather than three 0s. But I'd rather get one chippy-mc-chipperson and two solid hits. That means I've learned something.


I'm not sure I understand what you're saying (mainly because of that "chippy-mc-chipperson" stuff), but other than that it appears that you're mainly in agreement with me. Yes, I, too, would rather get a chip (which I learned something from) and then two solid hits rather than 3 zeros on the score card. Heck, even 3 chips would beat 3 zeros on the score card.

A previous poster in this thread referred to patterns as if they were "all or nothing" (in my opinion). In other words, you either centered the target in the pattern or you had near zero chance of breaking it. My patterning experience does not agree with that. More realistically, the center of the pattern is the most dense, and then the pattern becomes gradually less dense as you move away from the center. Sure, I want to center every target I shoot at, but I'm not too proud to take a chip if that's what happens. I've yet to see/hear any shooter in a competition say "Nah, I don't want you to count that chip because I only want the X's that I earned by centering the target."

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:03 pm 
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The best thing I can hear a trapper say is "I saw a chip off of that." :lol:

I don't care how hard I hit it as long as it gets me an "X".

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:53 pm 
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Terry - both you and I need those trappers with Superman vision!

But as I learned a LONG time ago from a top skeet shooter - 25 chips beats 24 smokeballs EVERY single time.........if using 8.5s for close and 7.5 for far means that extra 2-3 "X"s, then, in my mind, it's worth it.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:35 pm 
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Ulysses wrote:
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying (mainly because of that "chippy-mc-chipperson" stuff), but other than that it appears that you're mainly in agreement with me.

If you've missed throwing a 30" circle, you've missed by at least 15", their theory goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:23 pm 
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Here is the flaw in your thinking.

Patterns do not open in a uniform manner. Even if they did, you do not have enough pellets in a 1 1/8 oz. of 9’s to evenly fill a 30” pattern and reliably break a target.

Your chippy hits come from the outer 21” to maybe 30” of the pattern. Outside that diameter, most of those pellets are trailing the shot swarm......they are mostly out of the picture.

You have a nominal 21” pattern to reliably break targets. Why? Let’s choose a favorite choke of light modified(U2) At 35 yards that would be a about a 70% pattern. In other words 70% of the total payload is in a 30” circle.

Draw a 21” circle and a 30” circle, we will call it core and annular ring, both have the same area. 1 1/8 oz. of 7 1/2 shot is 394 pellets. 70% is 275 pellets total in the 30” circle and you will typically have 175 in the core and 100 the annular ring. The counts are typical averages. Once that pellet count gets to a 1.5 to 1 ratio that pattern is going to start costing you targets. With that light modified choke that happens right around the 40 - 45 yard mark.

You break targets with the 21” core, you chip targets with the annular ring IF it’s your day.

Ever wonder why you must choose a target of a simo pair that are only 2’ apart because when you shoot between them you miss both? You don’t have a 30” effective pattern. Effective being the important word.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:23 am 
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Why do you claim "you do not have enough pellets in a 1 1/8 oz. of 9’s to evenly fill a 30” pattern and reliably break a target?" You don't say what yardage you're talking about, but at 20 yards with a Cylinder choke, that would not be true. You would have a considerably denser pattern in both the core and the annular ring than you would have with your LM choke and #7.5's at 35 yards.

Of course, no pattern is entirely "even" (regardless of Jimmy Mueller's claims :D ), but the load of 9's out of a Cylinder choke at 20 yards will be as even as the #7.5's at 35 yards and considerably denser.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:56 am 
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Patterns do not open evenly in a linear manner......not even from a cylinder choke. But if they did I believe the calculation would show that there is something like 1” of space between each #9 pellet in a truly evenly spaced 30” pattern. That is not a reliable clay target killing pattern.

All patterns open in the same manner, with the core of the pattern bleeding off pellets gradually. Most of what a choke does is control the core density of the pattern. The tighter choke, the more pellets in the core and the core retains more shot throughout the shot swarms flight.

Choke cannot control the overall size of the pattern once the pellets are in free flight, because that atmosphere is working on each pellet. As long as the pellets stay in the core of the pattern they are somewhat protected from all the aerodynamic influences. Once outside the core they leave the pattern quickly, like within 5 yards.

Ulysses you don’t have to believe me, just go and pattern a few loads.

I am sure if you play around with chokes and spreaders for close in shots you can approach a perfectly even pattern but that pattern won’t be much once it has reached its perfect range.....and it certainly won’t be 30” in diameter.......and that situation will never present itself with standard chokes and loads.

The best I have ever seen, and this was for woodcock hunting, was a skeet choke and Polywad Spred ‘R’ reloads, that were pretty well massaged. Very narrow window of usefulness and used so that I could eat the game birds I killed. The experiment worked OK, I guess, nothing notable in the end.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:05 am 
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So here’s one for you. Cut open and measure 10 pellets from a Rem GN 8 and repeat for a 7-1/2. I’ve done this. With premium Win’s too. Average difference should be .005, but it’s not, it’s more like .002. IOW you guys are arguing theory and not reality. I shoot both interchangeably and there’s very little difference at targets, even over 50 yds, even less at 20 yds. Next comment is if you take the time to actually pattern, most of the extra pellets in a 1-1/8th oz load remain in the center core, and don’t really add much to the effective pattern over a quality 1oz.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:21 am 
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My take on all this. With M/M, a target of 25yds, if I can't break it with 7.5 --- 8.5 not going to help. Only target on SC course needs more pellots is 60mm, or the new 70mm, where 8's and 8.5 is a benefit... .


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:23 am 
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dogchaser37 wrote:

Ulysses you don’t have to believe me, just go and pattern a few loads.



LOL :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've patterned many hundreds of patterns on paper and done the counting and calculating, but I'm beginning to wonder if you have patterned ANY or just read someone's book. :roll: :roll: Even then, I'm not sure if you understand what you read.

Why is it that you keep dodging or refusing to answer direct questions? I made a direct comparison to the choke/load/distance example that you gave above and you attempt to evade or ignore the comparison.

Why don't YOU go put a pattern of 1 1/8 ounce #9 with Cylinder choke at 20 yards on paper and look at it in comparison to your LM with #7.5 at 35 yards? Even without counting, you'll be able to see that the pattern of #9's in this instance is not only equal to the pattern of #7.5, but in fact SUPERIOR.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:41 am 
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chips&clays wrote:
My take on all this. With M/M, a target of 25yds, if I can't break it with 7.5 --- 8.5 not going to help. Only target on SC course needs more pellots is 60mm, or the new 70mm, where 8's and 8.5 is a benefit... .


That's pretty much true if you're going to use M/M all the time. In that case, there are only a few instances where switching to smaller size shot would offer any advantage.

However, using different size shot can be a noticeable advantage if a person uses different chokes (as appropriate for the situation). While this idea is too confusing to some shooters who don't want to think, it can be an advantage for other shooters who are not puzzled by selecting a choke/load combo for their shots.

With just a little practice, it's easy to decide (after seeing the show pair) to use (for example) a Skeet choke and #8.5 or #9 for the first shot and a LM and #8 for the second shot rather than leaving in the M/M for all shots. If this is too much thinking or decision making for someone, then stick to tight fixed chokes for all shots, but understand that in doing so you are probably giving up several targets per 100 unless you're consistently breaking 90+ on a typical tournament course.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:06 am 
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If you didn't do all that shooting at paper and went out and shot clays you would be a better shooter. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:59 am 
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KRIEGHOFFK80 wrote:
If you didn't do all that shooting at paper and went out and shot clays you would be a better shooter. :lol:


Actually, I do both. Usually I'll do the shooting at clay targets first and then take 30 minutes or so afterward to do some pattern work with a particular choke or load that I may be interested in. But for the past few years, I've done only a little pattern work because in most cases it simply confirms what I already expected from the choke or load. But if I get some new chokes, I'll ALWAYS check them for POI in the gun(s) I plan to use them in.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:22 pm 
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KRIEGHOFFK80 wrote:
If you didn't do all that shooting at paper and went out and shot clays you would be a better shooter. :lol:

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