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 Post subject: What and When
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:14 pm 
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When the subject of lead technique comes up, its often said by good shooters that you need to learn all of the various techniques..that "one size fits all" simply doesn't apply when it comes to breaking birds.

My question is...how or what conditions apply when you consciously go into a stand and say "ok...for this target I'm going to shoot pull away and for the second target I'm going to shoot maintained" as opposed to missing the first bird and saying "ok well that method didn't work...lets try something else".

Do you have some rule of thumb that you apply for crossing/quartering/distance/speed that leads to an initial choice for lead acquisition technique?



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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:53 am 
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StevenZ wrote:
When the subject of lead technique comes up, its often said by good shooters that you need to learn all of the various techniques..that "one size fits all" simply doesn't apply when it comes to breaking birds.

My question is...how or what conditions apply when you consciously go into a stand and say "ok...for this target I'm going to shoot pull away and for the second target I'm going to shoot maintained" as opposed to missing the first bird and saying "ok well that method didn't work...lets try something else".

Do you have some rule of thumb that you apply for crossing/quartering/distance/speed that leads to an initial choice for lead acquisition technique?


I would say that the main criteria in selecting which method to use is your own experience. That's why you need to practice different methods on different shots to find out what works best for you. That way, when faced with a pair of targets, you can just automatically play it out in your mind and visualize how you are going to shoot each target of the pair.

This takes practice and isn't learned overnight. Videos and instructors can help, but it takes time and conscious effort on your part to learn what works for you.

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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:27 am 
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Ulysses wrote:
I would say that the main criteria in selecting which method to use is your own experience. That's why you need to practice different methods on different shots to find out what works best for you. That way, when faced with a pair of targets, you can just automatically play it out in your mind and visualize how you are going to shoot each target of the pair.

This takes practice and isn't learned overnight. Videos and instructors can help, but it takes time and conscious effort on your part to learn what works for you.


+10 :) Like the ole saying there's more than 1 right way to break a Target :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:38 am 
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I try NOT to go "consciously" into a stand... All conscious thought should be done outside of the stand. YMMV


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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:18 am 
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Good question... Here are a couple of situations that come immediately to mind for me. First off, my preferred technique for developing lead 85-90% of the time is pull-away. On longish crossers with some speed, trying to insert on the bird then pull away either results in a long time developing the proper amount of lead, or excessive gun speed trying to get there. For these targets, I like to insert ahead of the bird, maybe 2/3 of the perceived, required lead, then pull away... keeps the gun speed down, and allows getting the right lead in a reasonable amount of time.

For fast, outgoing, quartering targets that have a fair amount of crossing component, I like to use diminishing lead. Start the gun well ahead of the point where you first see the bird, probably 2/3 - 3/4 of the way to your break point, start the gun moving to the break point as soon as you see the blurred streak of the bird, let it come to the barrel and shoot when the lead looks right. This offers two advantages... to me, perceived lead is less with this method than pull-away and I can break the target sooner than if I had to wait for a point where the target is clearly visible to start building lead.

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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:33 am 
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Reading the 1st target of a report pair target and then selecting the technique and then reading the second target and deciding the target strategy, possibly changing technique to change kill points, is what experienced shooters do

On true pairs they may change the choice of first shot and hence technique

That's why practice is needed

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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Like close, medium, far for those that choose different chokes.

Methods are similar with target speed and distance. Certain methods are better for slow, high, and fast - quartering, 90 degree targets.

Some methods takes more time to develop, others are faster and get on the target sooner.

Practice tells you if your off on a target, make a change, don't shoot the same over and over, and walk out of the stand.


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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:07 pm 
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A long time ago, I posed a very similar question to Anthony Matarese Jr. during one of our lessons. My question was, "Do I have to know what method I am using as long as I am breaking the target?". His answer was:
Quote:
Some of the top shooters can not tell you what method they use on any particular target. But you're not a top shooter yet.

In other words, most people need to approach each target with a plan in mind. Part of your plan is going to be are you going to get on the target and pull away, or are you going to mount the lead like MMS? So yes, you (Jeff Hunter) have to know.


That opened my eyes to becoming more aware when I am shooting.

I have a certain number of tools in my bag. If I see a crossing climbing target, I'm maintaining that puppy. I have a high degree of confidence doing that on those types of targets. On a 90 degree crossing target, I'm going to use pull away.

If I encounter a target that I don't know how to hit, I'll try to associate it closely to what I already know and give that a couple times. If I don't know what to do, I'll use pull away.

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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:54 pm 
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If what the Brit said does not make sense to you, go take some lessons That sums up shooting clays nicely


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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:12 am 
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Ben Hustwaite has a really good video.
Suprisingly it's the same Dan Carslile taught me 20 years ago. Just learned I am a slow learner.


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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:36 am 
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There has been nothing really new in Clay Shooting since the 50's Contrary to what people say on the internet

Now the plastic v paper might chime in, the barrel length guys too, and a few others but it is still put the barrel in the right place pull the trigger at the right time

Anyone?

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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:04 am 
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When I see the show pair I decide what technique(s) to use. I play it out in my head, point at the targets with the methods chosen. The techniques chosen reflect where the 1st target needs to be taken in order to take the 2nd target smoothly with the technique chosen for the 2nd target. It's like billiards.

If I drop a target bc the plan wasn't correct, then I adjust accordingly. If I'm in front, behind, or off line I may need to change the plan as well, but usually it's an eye management error. Sometimes the targets are set such that I devote my focus to taking one of the targets in an easier place and praying on the other just to get some x's on the card.

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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:18 am 
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Steve: This is why it's hard to get good and stay good at SC. It takes tons of practice and over time that means tons of money.

I know of no short cut (tho coaching is something of a short cut). No gun, choke , shell that'll solve your situation.

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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:02 pm 
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sera wrote:
Steve: This is why it's hard to get good and stay good at SC. It takes tons of practice and over time that means tons of money.

I know of no short cut (tho coaching is something of a short cut). No gun, choke , shell that'll solve your situation.


Thanks for all the comments guys. What i was kinda wondering was if, as an example, you would say something like “for crossers inside of 30 yards, I use maintained and beyond that I use pull away as a starting point”.

My take away from this discussion is that you need to figure out what works best for you and that practice is the vehicle that we use to figure that out. One persons “go to method” is derived from what they’ve learned from their own personal practice.

Maybe a good topic for discussion on an a future episode of PFS.....and also a good excuse for me to start playing around with different techniques for different presentations and not use my standard go method of maintained lead.

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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:18 pm 
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Say you have a true pair L to R crosser on high spring and a straightaway on high spring. If you take the straightaway first, then the crosser curls out on edge and changes line after beating your barrel. The best place to take the crosser is before it curls out and changes line so you have to take it first.

Now let's say your "go-to" method for taking fast crossers is pull-away. But if you use that method your barrel is left waaay over to the right and by the time you get your barrel back into play for the straightaway it's long gone.

So, now you're left with having to take the crosser early so that you're "in shape" to take the straightaway quickly and with little gun movement.

You then realize that a method like come to the gun or collapsed lead is what you need to be succesful in this scenario...and that you need to master all the methods so that you can "go-to" them as needed.

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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:01 pm 
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+1 for DrtRdr's post. Ben Husthwaite's DVD "Method Star" fully describes a system that addresses StevenZ's question in great detail; for about 1/3 the cost of a single lesson from one of the big names.

I recommend buying the Husthwaite DVD and learning his system. After getting comfortable with the system, you can tweak it to accommodate your particular preferences.

That'll be a much faster and more cost-effective way to learn when to apply Maintained, Swing Through or Pull Away lead techniques.

Have fun,
Lou


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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:39 am 
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For me this is what I have worked hard to make these methods a subconscious application.

1. Most incomers and rabbits, steady swing, insert on the target and pull the trigger. The vast majority of these presentations at a distance of around 30 yards don' take lead for me.

2. Quartering shots - Intercept

3. Targets with a deceptive line and hard to read - Intercept

3. Fast targets - Collapsing Lead.

4. Long targets 50 yards and farther - Collapsing Lead

5. Teal - Collapsing Lead

6. Long Droppers - Pull a Way or Collapsing Lead

7. Targets Below my feet - Maintained Lead

8. Chandelles - Intercept

9. Battues - Intercept

10. Overhead targets - Collapsing Lead

11. If I get caught or surprised and I find my muzzle behind the target I was use Swing Through.

I can shoot all of these methods and I never think about which one I will use. My subconscious will determine that. It takes a long time to make everthing subconcious so as you are learning, decide before you get in the stand.

I sometimes will use a combination of two methods. This si also subconcious.


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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Ulysses wrote:
StevenZ wrote:
When the subject of lead technique comes up, its often said by good shooters that you need to learn all of the various techniques..that "one size fits all" simply doesn't apply when it comes to breaking birds.

My question is...how or what conditions apply when you consciously go into a stand and say "ok...for this target I'm going to shoot pull away and for the second target I'm going to shoot maintained" as opposed to missing the first bird and saying "ok well that method didn't work...lets try something else".

Do you have some rule of thumb that you apply for crossing/quartering/distance/speed that leads to an initial choice for lead acquisition technique?


I would say that the main criteria in selecting which method to use is your own experience. That's why you need to practice different methods on different shots to find out what works best for you. That way, when faced with a pair of targets, you can just automatically play it out in

your mind and visualize how you are going to shoot each target of the pair.

This takes practice and isn't learned overnight. Videos and instructors can help, but it takes time and conscious effort on your part to learn what works for you.


This is basically what it's about - you. Realize in a NSCA sporting clay tournament, every station is a tournament and each station has its own target personalities. Report or true, and what are the individual presentations as each one has its own distinct personality. How, from your practice, do you shoot outgoing quartering, crossers, teal, trap shots, rabbits, etc? Different presentations have different methods. It's a journey, enjoy it.


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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:10 pm 
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Mike McAlpine wrote:
I can shoot all of these methods and I never think about which one I will use.

Same here. I pick my break point, hold point, and focal point (in that order) and let the rest take care of itself. If I have a problem I change one or more of those things. Most of the time I couldn't tell you how I obtained lead.

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 Post subject: Re: What and When
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:43 am 
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For me speed of the target dictates a lot on shooting that target. I don't think about methods often, only on certain target that presents difficulty. Hold point very important, break point a distance to break it in...




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