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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 6:41 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:59 pm
Posts: 86
:Well, Gil’s in, Blakely’s in, and I’m in conversation way above my pay grade :D. I bet they’re on the edge of their seat, notepad ready, waiting for my comment but sadly, I will have to defer. Or maybe not. Gil’s taught me a lot, he just doesn’t know it. No offense Pete.
Seriously though, the best way I know to check dominance is for me to put my index finger tip just below the left eye. Have the Testee, stand facing you squarely, head square not cocked, both eyes open, and quickly point at the tip of the index finger under your eye. You then aim back through his pointed finger to his visual center. This method allows you to quickly check dominance and also determine if the Testee is center vision. I cannot tell you how many people, (right handed for instance), that will initially tell me they have been tested as left eye dominant. Then I’ll test them with this method and they will actually be center vision or yes, in some cases, even right eye dominant. Is center vision good news, not really other than you can shoot with either hand you prefer. In my experience dealing with eye dominance, boys seem to struggle with it more than girls. Girls seem a little better at being able to cope or adapt. It’s probably the way their brain is wired and their ability to multi task. Many of the girls will start out with a dot, then ween themselves off and find a solution. For some folks, male and female, putting a dot or occluder on them is like hobbling a horse. They hate it and shut down. For some a dot works quite well. Some of the more successful shooters I know with dominance issues wink or squint with the off eye. I personally am strong right eyed, right handed, but I shoot left handed frequently to try to give me a better idea of what these folks are dealing with and for those times when hunting that demand I shoot lefty. If I close my off eye, the other eye goes blurry. Of course that doesn’t go well. If I wink or squint slightly just before I shoot, I can’t follow the target that well and it looks a lot faster. But, put a dot on me and I’m a fairly capable left handed shooter. One thing I wonder. Just a theory or thought. What would happen on your problem targets, right to left crossers, if you squint, just a bit with left eye, just enough to blur the vision slightly (assuming right handed shooter) and call for the bird. This should theoretically cause the right eye to take over and lock on first. Then quickly fully open that left eye and see if the right eye maintains its lock through the process. For true off side dominance, this probably wouldn’t work. But if you have intermittent off eye takeover, it might help. All this is very interesting stuff and I have probably gotten way to deep for my limited mental capacity. I’m very much interested in what the professionals have to say. I had a right handed lady come in once and tell me she had stress induced off eye dominance or takeover during the shot process. That that was the reason she had a dot. That’s definitely above my pay grade.
Disclaimer 1: My first paragraph was an attempt at humor. A little something to lighten the mood. Please don’t take offense!
Disclaimer 2: The author is not responsible for his thoughts, comments, bad spelling or punctuation, or in general, any typed content.



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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:39 am 
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Gil Ash wrote:
I can help you


Gil, thanks for the offer, pm and email sent!

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Eye on the rock, head on the stock.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 6:52 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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We have come to the point that we seldom test for dominance. We begin with the two sight pictures and the difference between the two and all the dominant nance seems to fade away.

The two bullet drill. Right handed shooter.

Place two objects in a book shelf about 15" apart and with an unloaded gun look at the left object and mount the gun on the right object which is the sight picture on a left to right target (eyes to the left of the barrel). Now look at the right object and mount on the left object which would be the sight picture on a right to left target (eyes across the barrel. Repeat until the confusion goes away. Your brain is having to combine two retinal images into one that are 32" in front of your nose while looking at a distant object 30 yards away. This very confusing in the beginning but if you will practice this drill 20 min a day for 21 days it will look clear and the eye problems will go away.

#OSPSchool #Krieghoff #RioAmunition #SkeeterBoats #Briley #Laporte #LongRange #EAR #ProEars #BestWingshooting #Mossberg930 #wolfRange

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:50 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
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Gil. And yet, when just one missed target would spell disaster, many Olympians wear an occluder. I wonder why?


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:12 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 pm
Posts: 687
Gil Ash wrote:
We have come to the point that we seldom test for dominance. We begin with the two sight pictures and the difference between the two and all the dominant nance seems to fade away.

The two bullet drill. Right handed shooter.

Place two objects in a book shelf about 15" apart and with an unloaded gun look at the left object and mount the gun on the right object which is the sight picture on a left to right target (eyes to the left of the barrel). Now look at the right object and mount on the left object which would be the sight picture on a right to left target (eyes across the barrel. Repeat until the confusion goes away. Your brain is having to combine two retinal images into one that are 32" in front of your nose while looking at a distant object 30 yards away. This very confusing in the beginning but if you will practice this drill 20 min a day for 21 days it will look clear and the eye problems will go away.

#OSPSchool #Krieghoff #RioAmunition #SkeeterBoats #Briley #Laporte #LongRange #EAR #ProEars #BestWingshooting #Mossberg930 #wolfRange

It just works.


It does. My problem was a little different. My parents forced me to be righthanded when I'm a natural lefty. You can train the brain to do amazing things.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:04 pm 
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pete blakeley wrote:
Gil. And yet, when just one missed target would spell disaster, many Olympians wear an occluder. I wonder why?


I'm convinced occluders work, but for me they introduce other problems. I working through them but it changes most of my game. With the occluder I find that I haver a tendency to measure lead - something I never did before. I don't know if this will go away or not. Before if my move was correct and I looked hard at the target, I didn't even really think bout lead at all. Now I have to reprogram.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:02 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:59 pm
Posts: 86
Gil, If I understand that last post correctly. They simply adjust the lead the cross dominance requires by memorizing the necessary sight picture. For instance in their eyes it would seem they shoot behind the bird for a right crosser or right at it depending on distance. For the same shooter with a left to right crosser, he would need lead plus the amount of offset his dominance condition requires. Then he learns and shoots those sight pictures enough to anchor them in his subconscious. Pretty interesting I Have a close friend thats left dominant that worked out that system for hunting. And he’s deadly. He just couldn’t put into words exactly what he did to get there. He’s done it so long now, it’s normal.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:00 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:39 pm
Posts: 85
I am right-handed, left eye dominant, most of the time central dominant. I have been in master class for three years now and can put up some pretty good scores if the targets are set my way. I have tried occluders, winking, closing my left, removing my eye, switching my eyes, crossing my eyes, standing on 1 foot, etc. etc. etc... i’ve shot low rib, hi rib, midrib, no rib, automatic, etc.... what I have determined is I keep the gun out of my face on a soft mount for most shots. I trail underneath the bird and then go to the lead when the time is appropriate and pull the trigger. This keeps my left eye from becoming the dominant eye while I’m shooting. If I have a slow right to left target, (rabbit, Battue, edgy crosser, etc...), I shoot a foot or so behind it and it breaks. Like you said earlier, on right to left target I see two barrels and two birds. On left or right targets I can see the barrel and the bird separately and have no issue. I have found that I usually shoot bigger leads on birds from my left and shorter leads on birds from my right. It is not ideal or perfect, but it works for me. On any given day, I can break them all. If it ain’t broke.... lesson is, learn your weaknesses and do whatever works for you to overcome them. No two people shoot the same and what works for him or me probably won’t work for you. Some freaks shoot right handed with their right eye and catch all the breaks...for all the rest of us, it’s an uphill battle... at the end of the day, still the most fun I’ve ever had. My advice is, when you get tired, dehydrated, whatever it is and you feel that left eye getting strong, don’t panic, don’t fight it, just look at the back of the target. Because regardless of popular opinion, if your right handed, looking at a mid speed bird from Right to left and your left eye takes over, you ARE shooting in front...take it from a guy who’s made a science out of it thousands of times...Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 6:46 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Posts: 1690
Our vision as we shoot moving targets evolves from confusion in the beginning to a complete and clear perception as we mature. The eyes don’t see the brain sees and to say that dominance is fixed for life can’t evolve into a clear picture in the brain flies in the face of the plasticity of the brain. As we developed skill we are able to perform at higher and higher levels with less and less visual data input. That is what and how skill is developed. What I see now when I shoot now is vastly different than what I saw years ago. One common thread exists in this anomaly..... the more conscious the sight picture is the more dominance plays a larger an issue and the more confusion the sight pictures become. The more exact (conscious) the sight picture is the bigger the barrel gets and the more confusing everything is !!


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 1512
Gil. The eye above the rib must be the one that we use to give us the correct sight picture/bird barrel relationship. If the off eye takes over, even for a nano second, we will miss. If that happens in the Olympic disciplines, its game over.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:06 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:23 pm
Posts: 30
Location: UK
Dead right. Of course in any discipline this applies too.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:49 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 1512
Skyliner. Of course you are correct. But it makes you wonder how many SC shooters are out there that are shooting scores in the 70's and 80's but closing an eye may have them improving that score into the 90's perhaps?


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 5:30 am 
Shooting Instructor
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Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 1870
This really is ridiculous .
The Brain needs to compute the signals received from the eyes , if we give it confused signals we will get scrambled answers. I see a chap most weeks shooting competitions , he was really confused about his eye dominance , right handed but very clearly left eye dominant . Easy , close or wink your left eye . Result was 8 ex 8 on the next stand . A Week later back to square one missing a lot . Why ?
Because his coach who he pays a lot of money to, insists that he shoots both eyes open.
I understand Gil says he has over 8,000 ways to improve your shooting .
Could someone list them please .


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:44 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 1512
salopian. Good post. But there are some on here that still won't get it. The "I learned to keep both eyes open and it only took me 5 years to get into Masterclass" guys that have similar coaches to the guy you mention. I regularly get clients that go from 60% to 90% in a short space of time because I teach them how to read targets and suggest closing an eye. Without target reading skills, it doesn't matter if you shoot one eye or two. You will break some of the targets some of the time, but you won't break them all.

Keep both eyes open, focus on the target and "your subconscious will tell you where to put the gun?" Thank you, that will be another $200 please. And some shooters pay it?

I agree, ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:01 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 pm
Posts: 687
wasthestumper wrote:
pete blakeley wrote:
Gil. And yet, when just one missed target would spell disaster, many Olympians wear an occluder. I wonder why?


I'm convinced occluders work, but for me they introduce other problems. I working through them but it changes most of my game. With the occluder I find that I haver a tendency to measure lead - something I never did before. I don't know if this will go away or not. Before if my move was correct and I looked hard at the target, I didn't even really think bout lead at all. Now I have to reprogram.


I do the same when occluding my eye. I'm shooting on my dominant side but every so often my off eye takes over and as Mr. Blakely says it's a miss. I am mostly comfortable shooting two eyes open BUT I am learning when to close an eye. My success has gone up dramatically for just farting around.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:31 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:23 pm
Posts: 30
Location: UK
pete blakeley wrote:
Skyliner. Of course you are correct. But it makes you wonder how many SC shooters are out there that are shooting scores in the 70's and 80's but closing an eye may have them improving that score into the 90's perhaps?



Indeed. Many shooters have a fixation with shooting two eyes open, regardless of their eye dominance. It doesn't help that some coaches insist upon it and make a healthy living from the believers. As you said, the dominant eye must be over the rib. If it's not then the eye causing the problem, the 'wrong eye', must be closed, dimmed or occluded or good shooting is impossible.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:00 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 1512
Skyliner39. Excellent post. I get lots of clients that have been told exactly that by their "coach". Insisting on two eyes depends on the individual ie. with strong dominance you can shoot with both open. The problem isn't diagnosing the dominance, because its neurological, the problem is diagnosing the degree of dominance and even an optrometrist can't do that with 100% success. With weak neurological dominance, the wrong eye can kick in at any moment due to stress, tiredness etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:45 am 
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Pete, is your suggestion with shooters that only have eye issues every once in a while to shoot full time one eyed, or occluded, or to just switch to one eyed when the dominance issue raises it head.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:58 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:09 pm
Posts: 977
Location: Henderson, Nevada
I have cross firing pretty often. I used to be a fairly good two eyed trap shooter but for the past five years I have had trouble with my eyes cross firing. My left eye (non dominant) has had numerous iritis attacks and the pupil is constantly in an expanded position letting in more light than the dominant eye.
I have tried the magic dot, cellophane tape, squinting the left eye etc but what works best is to totally close the left eye all the time. I never know when cross firing will occur so I close the non dominant eye all the time. It has taken a while to get used to shooting one eyed but my scores are improving.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent eye dominance issue
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
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xsshooter. The trouble is, we never know exactly when a dominance problem will manifest itself. You can shoot a good score, then in a shoot-off situation because your stress level has elevated, you can't hit a cow in the a$$ with a banjo. As the Olympians have found out, its the kiss of death.

I had a long conversation with Kim Rhode about this problem in Sarasplotza, Hungary some years ago. Kim is an absolute sweetheart. She can shoot good scores with both eyes open, but only perfect scores with an occluder. Many other top shooters in both skeet and SC are the same way. So why not make sure that there is no mistake in identifying the correct bird barrel relationship and close the off eye? Blinking works for some, occluders work for others. But by closing the off eye as you trigger the shot you are retaining your perhipheral vision and depth perception right up to the last second when you trigger the shot. What have you got to lose?




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