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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:22 am 
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My first DVD 15 years ago was called "Read the line, Feel the lead". To become an accomplished SC shot we all need to build up a repertoire of sight pictures that we know to be correct. Unfortunately, focusing on the 5O yard crossing shot won't persuade you to put the gun 12 feet in front of it if you want to hit it. There is a way to quickly build up a repertoire of sight pictures and at the moment I am coaching in Europe but I will be back home in Texas mid-May. Please give me a call and I will be more than happy to explain.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:17 am 
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SirskeetsALot
Thank you for your reply and I understand the concept. However to be able to FEEL the shot there has to be a memory bank (neurons) of multiple presentation? Once that is established your brain knows where to put the barrel in order to break the clay, no matter if you SEE THE LEAD or not. And as soon as your brain recognizes the clay presentation the FEEL is engaged subconsciously? I think this is a level of SC that cant be explained completely. I may need to PM you later


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:05 am 
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I think what happens is motor development based on succesful repetition using predominately visual reference of bird/bbl relationship (edit: looking at the bird but a greater degree of peripheral awareness). Over time the brain crystallizes the pathways/body positions of succesful shots and then increasingly weaves that sensory input into the total picture creating feel. The degree to which you can rely on feel as a ratio to peripheral awareness I'm sure is subjective, as has been said, and boils down to development and preference.

If you've ever watched Bob Munden punch 10 rings with a pistol from the hip...he's doing it without visual reference of the gun. I've practiced this with a pistol equipped with a red dot. You can build an inventory of body positions that allow you to point without visual reference of the pointer. I bring this up to illustrate a point.

Again, for others reading, I'm trying to explain my take of what feel is in this context. I don't believe proprioceptive input and visual reference must be mutually exclusive.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:08 am 
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I was very fortunate to be involved with the Olympic skeet shooters for several years. They all see lead in respect that they know the bird barrel relationship they need to see at #1 is different to the lead they need to see at #4.

Over the years I have done clinics with and shot with some of the best in the World including the great George Digweed at the Dallas Gun Club. George sees lead.

Sometimes, I get clients that swear they never see lead but the only way that is possible is if they are using a swing through method and the speed of swing and shooter reaction time puts the gun in front of the target as the shot is triggered. That may work for bird hunting but the trouble is it isn't consistent for competitive shot-gunning because two things will vary that they have no control over ie. speed of swing and shooter reaction time. Diminishing lead is the best way for competition and to do that successfully you must see lead otherwise you wouldn't know when to trigger the shot. Hope that makes sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:30 am 
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I have a weird sensation when I center punch a target. For me, my perception is the barrel and target merge into and if I pull the trigger it's usually a very solid hit. I am aware of the bird and muzzle at this point but focus on the bird is 90-95%.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:48 am 
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blackandgold wrote:
my perception is the barrel and target merge into and if I pull the trigger it's usually a very solid hit. I am aware of the bird and muzzle at this point but focus on the bird is 90-95%.


This ^^^

In my case I would say the barrel and target "synch up" in a very specific way -- a way that I "feel" as well as am aware of visually -- and critically, all of this happens while I'm looking hard at the target. And when they synch up like this, I know it's going to be a kill before I even pull the trigger.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:57 am 
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I get this sensation also...being in the zone. If you hesitate, don't trust your abilities, you fall out of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 11:31 am 
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Jack / blackandgold,

I am curious. Can you tell me more about the sensation you experience? Is it a good feeling?

Some experts have said, amongst other things, that a few attributes of zone/flow state are being completely in the present, finding intrinsic value in the activity, and recognizing the potential for success. I wonder if some of these things manifest the actual physical sensation we are talking about (if we are indeed talking about the same thing).

Sorry for the thread drift. OP I'll start a new topic if you prefer.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 1:45 pm 
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The idea of the gun shooting where you are looking, refers to the gun shooting straight , not high, low or right or left. Nothing to do with lead. I'm sure you have shot your buddy's gun and it didn't fit you, and it shot high, low, or right or left.

When I'm shooting good, I don't see lead. If I'm seeing lead, I'm checking or making sure I don't miss. I usually miss when that happens. You almost feel lucky that you are breaking targets and not seeing lead, but you are just really focused on the target. You are letting it happen, not making it happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 1:57 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 2:48 pm 
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SirSkeetsALot wrote:
Jack / blackandgold,

I am curious. Can you tell me more about the sensation you experience? Is it a good feeling?

Some experts have said, amongst other things, that a few attributes of zone/flow state are being completely in the present, finding intrinsic value in the activity, and recognizing the potential for success. I wonder if some of these things manifest the actual physical sensation we are talking about (if we are indeed talking about the same thing).

Sorry for the thread drift. OP I'll start a new topic if you prefer.


Firstly let me handle being in the zone. Speaking for myself, when I'm in it, I feel confident, relaxed and ready all at the same time, I am focused 100% on the task at hand with no other outside thoughts are interrupting this state of mind-flow; it is neither a good or bad feeling, it is more one of being outside my own body and watching things unfold from above as an observer without emotional investment in the process or outcome. It is also a fickle thing for me; if I mentally acknowledge I'm in it, it disappears; if I try and initiate it, it won't happen; if I focus 100% on the task at hand with no other active thoughts, it frequently initiates -- so I'm now in the process of learning to essentially "ignore it and ride it" when it happens... The first couple of times I was in it, it felt more "strange" afterward than anything else -- the illogical mix of emotions of having been ready for anything, unconsciously reactive to all stimuli at once, certain at the outcome, and completely relaxed in the midst of the execution are simply odd for me. However when I came out of it, I felt pretty heavily drained physically and mentally afterward. Subsequent times I've gotten into it, the strength of those feelings has lessened, and the duration of remaining in it has seemingly lessened, but the frequency and ease of entering into it has increased -- so now it's happening more often for shorter periods of time, and without much emotional attachment or reaction connected to it.

All of which brings me back to your first question, what is the sensation/feeling when I "synch up" with the target? In my mind, it is just an instantaneous acknowledgement or awareness that the target and muzzle are on the same path and moving at the same speed -- but I do also believe it is sort of a "mini zone" moment that happens on a per-target or per-pair basis. While the above zone moments seemingly last for entire stations or strings of stations, even with rest periods in-between, they come easily at each station and the feeling while not really emotional in any way is still reasonably strong. By comparison, these mini synch-up moments are more a part of my normal "process" that seem to also help initiate a more full zone/flow experience.

I know this probably all sounds pretty esoteric, but it's difficult for me to know how to describe it more accurately than I have here -- hopefully this all made some sense, and hope it helps...

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The simple answer is, "K80, 32" flat-rib bbls, S&S custom stock, 55/45, Bornaghi 1oz 1250 7-½'s, M/M, Castelani, Lonesome Charlie, K-lube, qMaxx blue, Bore-snake, green Brake-cleen, and a very cold and dry Stoli martini."


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 2:52 pm 
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Random thoughts:

1. SirSkeet can do what he says. I have seen him shoot salty targets from the hip (caveat--I doubt this helps the average shooter much)

2. if you have no bbll awareness , you cannot change when you miss.

3.if you start "thinking about the zone" , you no longer are in it

4.if you think you can do any of this w/out practice , you are sadly delusional.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 2:59 pm 
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SirSkeetsALot wrote:
Jack / blackandgold,

I am curious. Can you tell me more about the sensation you experience? Is it a good feeling?

Some experts have said, amongst other things, that a few attributes of zone/flow state are being completely in the present, finding intrinsic value in the activity, and recognizing the potential for success. I wonder if some of these things manifest the actual physical sensation we are talking about (if we are indeed talking about the same thing).

Sorry for the thread drift. OP I'll start a new topic if you prefer.


Jack is the more accomplished shooter but since you asked me directly I will do my best to answer. The zone feels good. Like Jack said, it was weird. I thought I went cross eyed or had dominance issues. Then my coach let me in the secret that when I felt weird I broke 100% and was breaking targets well above my skill level. I found the zone about 15 minutes into my very first time shooting Clay's. Jack is pretty spot on witn his description so I not going to overlap.

I think Lanny Basshams book With Winning in Mind may give you a good starting point.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 3:02 pm 
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JacksBack wrote:

Firstly let me handle being in the zone. Speaking for myself, when I'm in it, I feel confident, relaxed and ready all at the same time, I am focused 100% on the task at hand with no other outside thoughts are interrupting this state of mind-flow; it is neither a good or bad feeling, it is more one of being outside my own body and watching things unfold from above as an observer without emotional investment in the process or outcome. It is also a fickle thing for me; if I mentally acknowledge I'm in it, it disappears; if I try and initiate it, it won't happen; if I focus 100% on the task at hand with no other active thoughts, it frequently initiates -- so I'm now in the process of learning to essentially "ignore it and ride it" when it happens... The first couple of times I was in it, it felt more "strange" afterward than anything else -- the illogical mix of emotions of having been ready for anything, unconsciously reactive to all stimuli at once, certain at the outcome, and completely relaxed in the midst of the execution are simply odd for me. However when I came out of it, I felt pretty heavily drained physically and mentally afterward. Subsequent times I've gotten into it, the strength of those feelings has lessened, and the duration of remaining in it has seemingly lessened, but the frequency and ease of entering into it has increased -- so now it's happening more often for shorter periods of time, and without much emotional attachment or reaction connected to it.

All of which brings me back to your first question, what is the sensation/feeling when I "synch up" with the target? In my mind, it is just an instantaneous acknowledgement or awareness that the target and muzzle are on the same path and moving at the same speed -- but I do also believe it is sort of a "mini zone" moment that happens on a per-target or per-pair basis. While the above zone moments seemingly last for entire stations or strings of stations, even with rest periods in-between, they come easily at each station and the feeling while not really emotional in any way is still reasonably strong. By comparison, these mini synch-up moments are more a part of my normal "process" that seem to also help initiate a more full zone/flow experience.

I know this probably all sounds pretty esoteric, but it's difficult for me to know how to describe it more accurately than I have here -- hopefully this all made some sense, and hope it helps...

Great stuff, Jack! I especially like you "mini zone" concept. You should be writing books.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 3:58 pm 
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There are 4 phases per se in this order...Shooting for feel, Shooting for score, Shooting to win, and Shooting to dominate. Most find themselves in the first two. Every phase takes practice, a lot of practice.

Feel to me is understood quicker for some than others. How soon and often do you trust what you see visually ( nothing else is going on ) and recognize the shot without making a conscious decision. Do not find yourself considering when it looks right, instead only recognize only what you see, visually/feel/sense in the picture and let’er go. Nothing more nothing less. It is simple when you do it. It comes down to the old making it repeatable. Proper Practice is indispensable.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:03 pm 
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Good post Jack.

The "Zone" is a fickle and fascinating thing. When I'm there and shooting at my best, my conscious thoughts are quick, simple and very limited. My subconscious takes over and I often can't answer honestly when people ask me "were you shooting pull away?" or "how much lead were you giving that target?". The "feeling" I get is one of being in sync, both with the targets and everything else around me at that moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:44 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:17 pm 
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Good stuff, Jack. Nice personal account...pretty much in line...touches on similar experience. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

b-n-g, thank you for the reply. Basham's book is on my shelf with highlights and ear marks. Good company.

Sera, your contributions are matter of fact, often humorous...sage status on this forum as far as I'm concerned.

Good day to all and on to the next Scotch.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:03 am 
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The answer to this is I don’t see lead but I notice it.....thank you , thank you I’m here all week.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:38 pm 
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When shooting from the shoulder, I do see a lead in the periphery. I believe we all do. If you take 2 shotgun shells and sit them on a counter two feet apart. Then stare or try to consciously focus as hard as you possibly can on one of them. It is almost impossible to not see or be aware of the other shell in your periphery. I cannot make myself not see the other shell. The only way for me not to see the other shell is to use something to physically block it out. It’s not really in focus, it’s blurry, but I know it’s there. Or try to focus on one word in a paragraph. I’ll bet that no matter how hard we try, we will still see the other words surrounding the word we focused on. We probably can’t read them because our mental and visual focus is directed elsewhere. But they are still there in our periphery. We just don’t think about them. I think this is how many of us see lead and I think some of us may not be consciously aware that we see it. I do know that when my conscious focus shifts away from the target, like to the barrel or bead, even for a split second, the gun slows down and I generally miss. Maybe we do see lead, we just don’t notice that we do.



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