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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 12:23 am 
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Turpentine1 wrote:
When shooting from the shoulder, I do see a lead in the periphery. I believe we all do. If you take 2 shotgun shells and sit them on a counter two feet apart. Then stare or try to consciously focus as hard as you possibly can on one of them. It is almost impossible to not see or be aware of the other shell in your periphery. I cannot make myself not see the other shell. The only way for me not to see the other shell is to use something to physically block it out. It’s not really in focus, it’s blurry, but I know it’s there. Or try to focus on one word in a paragraph. I’ll bet that no matter how hard we try, we will still see the other words surrounding the word we focused on. We probably can’t read them because our mental and visual focus is directed elsewhere. But they are still there in our periphery. We just don’t think about them. I think this is how many of us see lead and I think some of us may not be consciously aware that we see it. I do know that when my conscious focus shifts away from the target, like to the barrel or bead, even for a split second, the gun slows down and I generally miss. Maybe we do see lead, we just don’t notice that we do.


I see the lead but I don't notice it. I shifted my eyes once after triggering my shot to see what was going on. Even though I though I was 90-100% focused on the bird...my eyes were ahead of the short crosser as was my barrel. But if I hadn't looked to see where my eyes were I would have told you I shot right at it! I'm assuming my subconscious mind calculated the lead. It's a fascinating feeling and subject.



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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:50 am 
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Generally when I get into trouble and start reinforcing a bad habit is on an elusive target that I cannot seem to get a handle on. I shoot looking at the target but the computer can’t seem to put the gun in the right place. So the next thing that happens is I start switching my focus away from the target and trying to see where the barrel is when I pull the trigger. This really starts the ball rolling downhill. If I keep trying to do this I reinforce the bad habit and can really work myself into a funk. I’ve learned that if I get a target like this, not to sit on it to long. I go to another target for a while, re-synch the computer, and then come back to the problem target. Obviously this post isn’t about whether or not I see lead, but what happens when I focus on trying to see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 5:15 pm 
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h80,
There are some really good comments here. Jacks are right on target. The first thing you mentioned; inches and feet. Which one is right? They both are. A person that sees lead in feet is using the target as their reference point. The person who sees lead in inches takes their reference from the barrel. They are actually very close but because of the different distances of the reference point they seem different. Let’s take a 50 yard crosser. The hypothetical lead taken from the muzzle may be 4 barrel widths. When you look hard at the target (reference point) the perceived lead may be 8 feet. (These are not a true measurement)

When those people were talking about a feel they are subconsciously seeing a lead on a similar target they have shot many times before. As many have said, don't try to measure an exact lead. Doing so will cause you to look at the barrel. This will cause you to stop the muzzle and shoot behind the target. One other thing, the speed of the muzzle will cause the perceived lead to change. A faster muzzle speed will make the perceived lead look shorter. A slow muzzle speed will cause the perceived lead to look much farther. Also, remember that different methods for achieving lead will change the perceived lead. This is because of the muzzle speed that is required with each method. Compare Swing Through to Maintained Lead. SW has a shorter perceived lead that ML. SW has a much faster muzzle speed than ML because the muzzle has to come from behind the target and must catch up and pass the target where ML requires a muzzle speed that is the same as the speed of the target. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions.

Mike McAlpine
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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 5:56 am 
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A person that sees lead in feet is using the target as their reference point. The person who sees lead in inches takes their reference from the barrel.

Most of my students seem to see or comprehend lead at the target in feet. But your point here was driven home by a lady I was working with two years ago. I finally figured out that what I considered 1 foot of lead, she equated to 1 target width. I also have some that use finger widths off of the barrel. My son shoots swing through and sees very little lead. And most pull away guys seem to see a little less than I do as they accelerate away from the target. Due to increased muzzle speed that you mentioned. I shoot more sustained where I stay ahead and fire when things synch up. I find that by staying out front, the target seems to slow down. If the bird passes my barrel, it seems much faster, out of focus, and I usually never catch up to it. Same goal, different methods.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 7:50 am 
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For whatever it's worth at this point in the discussion... I shoot all the major lead methods, and never notice any difference to the amount of lead I see between them -- but then I get back to the fact I'm not looking at the leads, I'm focusing on the target...

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 3:52 pm 
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JacksBack wrote:
For whatever it's worth at this point in the discussion... I shoot all the major lead methods, and never notice any difference to the amount of lead I see between them -- but then I get back to the fact I'm not looking at the leads, I'm focusing on the target...


I believe I have a similar perception based on your posts so far. If I consciously "see" lead i am usually toast or get a chip at best. I can't say if what I do is right or wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 7:21 pm 
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Not to make a play on semantics...seeing is fine however recognizing IMHO is better. Kinda like driving home or to the range you know or recognize the way with very little thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 12:51 am 
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JacksBack wrote:
, I'm focusing on the target...


QFT

(Quoted for truth)

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 6:25 am 
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I had a target Saturday that had my number. Second Bird of a pair, 10 o'clock no ark coming across approx. 10 yards in front of the cage, and dropping. I spent some time on that Bird. I was measuring the lead, and using a sustained lead of what I perceived as 3 feet, but doing so I was looking at the bead and stopping the gun. One person told me use swing through, a bad habit had formed. I took a break, and went back with some good shooters, they new I was looking at the bead, my bead was blackened. One said I lacked confidence in hitting that Bird, and causing me to measure the lead. How I ended breaking the Bird was inserting 2 feet behind and passing through with what I perceived as 1 foot of lead. One last note when coming back to that bird I was incerting the gun to high I had not planned my hold point for that second bird, Tenguage


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 8:53 am 
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I'm no expert, but three feet of lead at ten yards seems like lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 2:54 pm 
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Great answer duck. I think you nailed it!!!!!!!!!!

Teng,

Brad is right about three feet being too much. Here is a suggestion. Any time you have a crossing target that is this close let it pass you and shoot it as a quartering shot. I would almost be that you could probably shoot right at it and smoke the target. If you miss you will know that you are behind the target so add a little to it and see what happens. When I say a little, I mean a little, maybe six inches. This is base on your comment of three feet.

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The Clay Target Academy


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Yrs_racer, Mike, my technique for this shot was wrong, and you both are right. Mike, not only was this was a close crossing clay, but dropping quickly in front of the cage. By using a sustained lead a compound lead was needed. I ended with approx 2 feet incert behind the clay, and a quick swing through, not much lead breaking the clay. Ten.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 7:51 pm 
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“. Any time you have a crossing target that is this close let it pass you and shoot it as a quartering shot.“

I coach a youth team and see many kids at tournaments try to take this shot as a crosser where it’s generally faster and requires the maximum lead. I teach my kids to be patient and shoot quartering away, same as you suggest. It makes for a much easier shot. So much of this game is about knowing when to shoot a particular presentation And getting your gun into proper position to execute the shot on the second bird. No matter what type of shooting method we use.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 8:36 pm 
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Very true....but in a number of instances, it can’t be shot early or late, and in others, it must be shot early or late.

That’s why learning to shoot every target in and out of the sweet spot is important.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 11:05 pm 
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Rooster booster wrote:
Very true....but in a number of instances, it can’t be shot early or late, and in others, it must be shot early or late.

That’s why learning to shoot every target in and out of the sweet spot is important.


Exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 8:42 am 
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When I practice, coach my kids, or shoot a round for fun, targets are shot at varying breakpoints. Not just the same breakpoint over and over as is usually done in a round when keeping score. This prepares you to take a target wherever you may have to and to be more confident about it. And it shows you points where the target is difficult for you to break. This teaches you how to asses a target, play to your strengths, and shoot when a target is at its most vulnerable to your particular shooting style. Provided that is an option for the particular presentation. If the bird we were discussing hits the ground right in front of the stand, of course we can’t let it pass and shoot it quartering so we consider other options.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:19 am 
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I agree, if the bird is dropping in front of the cage then it MUST be taken as an incoming quartering shot. Again, be careful about putting too much lead on a presentation like this. This type of presentation is a setter's TRAP. They are trying to dictate the break point. Don't let them do this.

I set a presentation at the Texas State Championships two years ago. I was setting over a small pond. I threw a low incomer that fell in to the water across this pond. I also set a low fast crossing shot. (It was higher if you shot in closer to the machine. This was a true pair and most shooters were trying to shoot the targets right before they crossed. This was my TRAP and the break point they chose looked good but it wasn't. After a squad of my friends shot (they ripped me a good one and told me this was a bad pair) I told them they all had picked the wrong break point. They told me to shoot it. I did and ran the station. Several of them reshot this station after the rotation was over and they all ran the station. They had a lot of apologizing to do. (Made my day) :lol:



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Learning to read the targets and the pair is a key factor in becoming an great shooter. Setters like me can beat a shooter who doesn't do these things.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:00 pm 
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Mike McAlpine wrote:
I agree, if the bird is dropping in front of the cage then it MUST be taken as an incoming quartering shot. Again, be careful about putting too much lead on a presentation like this. This type of presentation is a setter's TRAP. They are trying to dictate the break point. Don't let them do this.

I set a presentation at the Texas State Championships two years ago. I was setting over a small pond. I threw a low incomer that fell in to the water across this pond. I also set a low fast crossing shot. (It was higher if you shot in closer to the machine. This was a true pair and most shooters were trying to shoot the targets right before they crossed. This was my TRAP and the break point they chose looked good but it wasn't. After a squad of my friends shot (they ripped me a good one and told me this was a bad pair) I told them they all had picked the wrong break point. They told me to shoot it. I did and ran the station. Several of them reshot this station after the rotation was over and they all ran the station. They had a lot of apologizing to do. (Made my day) :lol:



Mike McAlpine,
The Clay Target Academy



Learning to read the targets and the pair is a key factor in becoming an great shooter. Setters like me can beat a shooter who doesn't do these things.


I can't see the actual targets as you set them, but it sounds like from your description that it would be better to shoot the crosser first (fairly early), and then take the incomer just before it drops into the lake. Otherwise, you'd have to take the incomer early with a tight choke at considerable distance to give you time to take the crosser later.

I'd have to see them as a true pair to be sure, but I'll generally take the one that stays in the air the longest as my second shot unless I have one going away from me in a hurry.

So tell us, how did you shoot it? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 6:56 pm 
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I’ve been setting targets as well for about ten years now. I still learn something new every time I go out. Being a setter can be a big benefit if you are also an instructor. You can not only teach students how to shoot and read targets, but why a setter set particular presentations the way he did and make them aware of the little tricks of the trade or traps that you mention. And unfortunately, you can also recognize when another setter doesn’t know their job very well.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:17 pm 
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I personally see lead. About the only time I don't see lead would be a close quartering bird where I match the target speed and shot right at it. Everything else I see a gap at the target.

As to the Zone... When I experience it, shooting feels effortless. I am in a calm state, I see the target very clearly and it slows way down and my breaks are usually inkballs. Also my gun mount feels like the gun is just part of me and you have the feeling of "I'm going to crush this target".



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