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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 6:00 am 
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Do you actually see lead? Of course. When we look at a target we’ve seen thousands of times, we know exactly where the barrel has to go to break the bird because it’s been trained what that picture looks like. So the idea is to put the barrel where you know it needs to go without focusing on that process. You have to watch the target, but not so hard that you lose all the other information about what is going on. I see the target and I am aware of a fuzzy barrel out there in front somewhere. Your hands make the adjustments to the fuzzy thing out there based on info they receive from your eyes watching the speed/line/distance of the target. When I am shooting really well, I don’t really see anything but the smoke of the target after it’s all over. That is the “zone” they speak of. You are letting it happen, not forcing it to happen. I tell people, my eyes know where to put the barrel, but my brain knows EXACTLY where to put the barrel. SHUT THE BRAIN OFF and let the training and eyes do their job and watch what happens!




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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:22 pm 
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We hear so many instructors, all the time, I’m one, say “Look at the Target”. Some will say it over and over again and offer very little, or no other advice. Other than “don’t look at the bead? Of course we do this because we want the shooter to work out his own solution, his own sight picture. If we tell him where he’s missing, he starts to AIM. I believe this terminology tends to confuse a lot of folks. Especially younger shooters and they often ask questions when I tell them to look at the target. What does look at the target mean? Does it mean that the target is the only thing I’m supposed to see and if so, just how the heck does that work? How can I possibly know how far in front I am?
I say the same thing during my sessions but I’m beginning to wonder if I should use a different phrase. What we really want is hard focus on the target and I think “focus on the target” describes the process more clearly. Focus implies using a little extra attention. Concentration. Look can more or less mean we point the eyes in that general direction. We might glance at or look at a girl walking down the street. Barely noticing. But if she’s pretty and has a nice shape, we might actually focus on that image. If we dont focus then, perhaps we have more issues than whether or not we see lead.
I think it also helps to explain that when we focus our eyes on a target, that everything else doesn’t disappear. There will still be images in the peripheral and that this is also funneling into your mind to give you a firing solution. After we do this operation thousands of times, we don’t even notice it anymore. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t still there. We just aren’t consciously aware of it anymore.
One little drill I do with my students, I will throw a long slow target and tell them I want them to focus on the target just like they are going to shoot, then shift that focus to the bead and tell me what happens. The gun slows down. Shift focus back and forth and the barrel looks like a horizontal yo-yo. When your focus shifts from the target, it’s like pulling the leads on the computer. No more info gets in so it shuts down momentarily. All this is just a thought after giving a lesson yesterday and relating back to this thread. I figured I’d jot it down.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 8:48 am 
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KRIEGHOFFK80 wrote:
A lot of shooters tell you that if the gun fits you it will shoot where you are looking.

They also tell to look hard at the target.

If you are looking hard at the target, gun fits you, and it takes a 10' lead you will be 10' behind.

I have been working on the Peter Blakeley way of shooting.

Looking hard at the target and at the last second look to the lead and pull the trigger.

It seems like a good way of doing it.


This is completely wrong. You MUST focus on the target. What else could you possibly focus on? When someone says your gun will “shoot where you are looking,” that includes the built in lead to break the target. You would shoot 10 feet behind a target if you weren’t moving with it, which can only happen if you're NOT looking at it.

Ask any top shooter what they are focusing on into the break point. They will say that orange disk with the ridges that they are trying to hit.


Last edited by paracord on Sat May 12, 2018 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:09 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:24 am 
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KRIEGHOFFK80 wrote:
And everybody has an opinion. Some work some don't.


Terry,

2+2 = 4 isn't an opinion. It's a fact.

Needing to focus on a moving target in order to break it with a shotgun (or hit it with a baseball bat, tennis racket, etc.), is a fact.

It's not my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 11:44 am 
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One of the best things about shooting sporting clays is that not everybody shoots the same way. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 11:52 am 
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paracord. IMO you're wrong but don't take my word for it. Ask Jon Kruger or Richard Faulds or some of the other top guys. By top I mean top 1%. For this to work, you must know where to look and if your coach can't teach you how much lead the target needs, you won't know where that is.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 11:57 am 
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paracord. Once again IMO your last post is comparing apples to oranges. Hitting a baseball, tennis ball etc. isn't the same as shooting a moving target because there is a time lapse to allow the shot column to get there. With a 40 yard crosser that could be 1/5 th of a second by which time the target has moved 8-9 feet. If your gun shoots where you look and you are looking at the target, where do you think the shot column goes?


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:11 pm 
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Ugh. This same BS has been going on here for years. Same players in the same type of thread from 2012:


viewtopic.php?f=95&t=299300&start=20


Faulds himself replied and said he locks onto the target 100%. I’ve personally had lessons with Carlisle and Matarese who I’d consider “top shots in the 1%”. Both have been the best shooter in the world at points in their careers and never did they say to take your eyes off the target. Same with bill McGuire, Ben husthwaite, Bobby Fowler, etc. I’ve never heard anyone say to look “ahead” of the target except you.

As soon as you leave the target, the data that the target is providing is cut off from your brain. This is not the way you consistently break targets.

And your question of how do you know the lead? I’d counter and say how do you know how far to “look ahead?”

You can move your gun ahead of the target while still focusing on it and watching it break.

You can’t focus on “air.”


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:14 pm 
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pete blakeley wrote:
paracord. Once again IMO your last post is comparing apples to oranges. Hitting a baseball, tennis ball etc. isn't the same as shooting a moving target because there is a time lapse to allow the shot column to get there. With a 40 yard crosser that could be 1/5 th of a second by which time the target has moved 8-9 feet. If your gun shoots where you look and you are looking at the target, where do you think the shot column goes?


It goes into the target and crushes it. I’ve broken quite a few 40 yard crossers and ive NEVER focused on anything BUT the target. Your brain puts your hands where they need to be by getting data from the target through your eyes. Not from the air in front of the target.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:19 pm 
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IMO it doesn't but have it your own way. And why would you fit a shotgun if it doesn't shoot where you look?


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:46 pm 
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pete blakeley wrote:
IMO it doesn't but have it your own way. And why would you fit a shotgun if it doesn't shoot where you look?


When you fire at a target, your shotgun is moving. Hopefully it is moving at the same speed or very slightly faster than the target because you've been focusing on it so that your gun synchronizes with it.

So naturally, when you fire, your shot pattern is NOT going to be behind it because it's being fired from a MOVING BARREL that is moving at the same speed at the target. You want every last bit of data from that target you can get, right up until you pull the trigger. You DON'T want to take your eyes off of it and cut off the data supply right in the moment of truth at the breakpoint. that's just crazy.

I don't believe you are accounting for the moving, synchronized gun in your hypothesis.

Also, here's a snippet from the 2nd greatest skeet shooter in history. In skeet, some targets require quite a lot of lead. I've never heard Todd Bender say to look at the sky in front of a target. Ever.

Quote:
Some instructors say to look at the leading edge of the target. I was taught to look at the rings on the dome of the clay and to watch it spin. It’s all just another way of saying look at the target. But don’t just look — focus…hard. From behind a shotgun, many shooters can see a lot of things. They see the background: the clouds, the trees, the birds and a little orange aspirin flying really fast through the scene. The top shooters see a big orange trash can lid flying really slow.

Ever have one of those days when everything felt just right? The targets were big and slow, and your scores showed it. Then there are the days when everything is off — the targets are fast, you are not smooth, and it’s one of those days Mom warned you about. Most shooters look at the differences between these days as some sort of “black box” occurrence, never to be controlled. The difference is simply vision. On the good days, you are seeing targets well, only because you are focused on them. The bad days, you are not.


https://shotgunsportsmagazine.com/blog/ ... our-vision


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Another snippet from Gebben Miles in response to a query from Anthony Matarese on the same subject:

Gebben Miles
“I personally see lead in both inches and feet, but never think about either during the shot (obviously) because we’re shooting in the sub-conscious. Before I actually shoot the target I use my fingers to get an estimated gap of daylight between the bird and the barrel. When I’m actually shooting my eyes never leave the target, if they do I’ll miss, which gets back to the feel issue.”


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:09 pm 
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But what if the target takes a 10 to 15 foot lead? Where do you look then?

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:34 pm 
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paracord. Are you saying that the speed of your barrel influences the distance you shoot in front of the target?


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Have to agree with Paracord. I will miss more when taking my eye off. When loosing site of the target going to a spot ahead promotes aiming, measuring, and we know where that goes. As far as distance ahead, site pictures through lots of practice of breaking targets..


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:46 pm 
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KRIEGHOFFK80 wrote:
But what if the target takes a 10 to 15 foot lead? Where do you look then?


The target.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:47 pm 
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pete blakeley wrote:
paracord. Are you saying that the speed of your barrel influences the distance you shoot in front of the target?


Yes. And the placement of the barrel at the breakpoint, as dictated by the target during its flight.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:40 pm 
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pete blakeley wrote:
paracord. Once again IMO your last post is comparing apples to oranges. Hitting a baseball, tennis ball etc. isn't the same as shooting a moving target because there is a time lapse to allow the shot column to get there. With a 40 yard crosser that could be 1/5 th of a second by which time the target has moved 8-9 feet. If your gun shoots where you look and you are looking at the target, where do you think the shot column goes?


I've been interested in learning about your method Mr. Blakely. Up until now, I've shot mostly the Carlisle/Matarese method and it works well for me under 40 yards. What I've noticed is that I consciously am focusing on seeing rings, letters on the target (if I can with 20/15 vision) and my gun subconsciously is out in front of the target but I would swear on my life I shot right at it (we know this can't be true on a crosser).

Matarese teaches several methods but what I'm working on is inserting at +1 +2 +3 distances ahead of the target so my barrel is ahead of the target. It takes muscle memory to get there. I'm very keen to see if you're analytical method may work for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you actually see lead?
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 12:23 pm 
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paracord. "Faulds says he locks onto the target 100%" Of course he does, so do I. But he also says (when talking about a long crossing shot) look INFRONT to the required lead and trigger the shot. So do I. And so does Jon Kruger and many others. But it is not my intention to end up in a lengthy discussion on here because I know I won't be able to convince you otherwise.




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