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 Post subject: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:47 am 
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Interesting topic on facebook top pro's getting after Don Currie.

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:12 am 
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Some pro inst'rs are excellent , even tho they have never won a major tournament.

Some top shooters are HORRIBLE b/c they can't communicate, even tho they have silver hardware on their mantles.

I have endured the bad of both kinds and one or two good ones , too. One set of credentials or the other is not foolproof. A shooter needs to find the right mix. Sometimes trial and error is the only way.

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:30 am 
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What Sera said. What's interesting about this particular post is I have taken lessons from both Don Currie and Zach Kienbaum, and learned several useful tactics and techniques from both; to the point I would happily take a lesson from them again in a heartbeat. To me it isn't an either/or situation; both have merit.

Moreover, there's a guy who hasn't been shooting as much as he'd like, and I tend to outshoot him by a handful of targets at any major shoot we happen to be at together, but I will take a lesson from him when possible --- he can immediately see where my process is failing and help me correct it.

So I don't buy into the mantra that in order to learn you have to take a lesson from the best shooters; better to take lessons from the best instructors :) HOWEVER, that said I do think if one wants to win say a Nationals, then at some point you'll probably want some lessons from somebody whose done it.

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The simple answer is, "K80, 32" flat-rib bbls, S&S custom stock, 55/45, Bornaghi 1oz 1250 7-½'s, M/M, Castelani, Lonesome Charlie, K-lube, qMaxx blue, Bore-snake, green Brake-cleen, and a very cold and dry Stoli martini."


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:47 am 
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Poor lad.....still suffering from ‘foot in mouth’ disease.

Being a top shot means you’re a top shot. Many, many, many of the best instructors in anything were not necessarily the best when or if they competed. That’s certainly not to say there are not a good number if very good instructors in shooting who were too competitors. But when anyone resorts to running their mouth about why they are better than ‘so and so because.....’time to move on quickly IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:14 am 
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Rooster booster wrote:
Poor lad.....still suffering from ‘foot in mouth’ disease.

I think this goes both ways. No reason for the NSCA and/or Currie to post that article in the first place. Why piss off the top shooter/instructors and their fans? Yes, he's promoting his own program and trying to generate revenue for the NSCA but it's tone deaf to make such a posting.


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:21 am 
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Yeah......I can see your point of view. But the better established coaches don’t seem to feel the need to respond to much except their students. Otherwise it all ends up looking like cats fighting over a scrap in a garbage can.


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:46 am 
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Rooster, I'd have to disagree with you, let me first copy my response to Don's article here:

"Don Currie, here's what you don't realize, and you can't realize -- because unless you've been there, it's something you wouldn't even conceptualize. The level of knowledge that it takes to be at a world level in this game is unimaginable. The highest level of what you're teaching and doing while YOU shoot or coach, is the stuff that we've built into the subconscious ten years ago and don't even think about anymore.

This game has evolved so much in the past five years, that unless you're at the forefront of the competitive aspect of it, you're left so far behind you're completely useless. The stuff I was teaching and using just three years ago is, for a lack of better terms, light-years behind what I do now -- but unless you've been winning major championships in that time, you wouldn't even notice the required change.

The guys at the top of the game are inventing how to play the game. There's nobody that understands it better or can teach it better because we're the ones building it. We're forced to. The game is becoming so much harder, and so much more complex, that if you aren't constantly working on new stuff you're falling behind. That's what is unique about our sport, and why it can't be compared to golf or anything else in terms of instruction. It's too young. There's nothing "new" in golf anymore, and there hasn't been since the addition of sports psychology.

It's not about "technique" anymore, this game is so far past that. We're what, 30 years old in this country? Imagine golf 30 years into the competitive game. Do you think that certified instructors knew more than the best at playing the game? Especially when those certified instructors can't come close to competing with the best?

Competing at the highest level in the world isn't about talent or skill, it's about knowledge. And knowledge about the game is teachable.

Do you really think somebody like myself or any of my peers could get to the level that we have in this game if we don't know how to teach, as you mention in your article? The level of self awareness required to be at the top of this game is unbelievable, one of the hardest things about trying to compete. Do you really think that we could get to this level in the game if we only know one "technique" and don't know how to communicate what we do effectively to somebody else?

The fact that you think we only know, implement, and teach a single technique shows your ignorance to what it takes to compete and teach at the highest level.

Speaking for myself here, but probably not alone in this sentiment -- I've kept quiet about a lot of what you've been "selling" in your position at the NSCA as a professional courtesy, but when you use the platform that you've been freely given to attempt to discredit the best instructors in this game for your own monetary gain, I'm not going to just let you do it.

This article is ridiculous and I'm probably going to purchase a two page advertisement in the magazine to rebuttal it."

---------

If you would go through, you would see that every single one of the top coaches in this sport (every one that has produced a champion) commented about the article, and is frustrated with the article.

The frustrating part about the article is that the instructor program was written by the top professionals, we were consulted to help structure it. Everything that Don publishes and teaches has originated from one of the top professionals. We get people that sign up for lessons who are in the instructor program and close to Don, after the lesson, a month later, I see an article in the magazine referencing the material with the same terminology that I use written by Don claiming it as original material. I get phone calls from numerous top professionals laughing about the same thing on a monthly basis. Do we ever mention it? No, because we understand -- and passing knowledge and is a good thing for the growth of the sport.

But if Don Currie is going to write and publish an article sponsored by the NSCA now claiming that the people that taught him everything are not good instructors, and if given the chance, you should choose a certified instructor over a professional because we can't teach, that's crossing the line. That's using a platform that was freely and undeservingly given to him with zero qualifications to use position himself and the NSCA over the people that actually built the program. That's what I have a problem with.

Do I think there is a place for certified instructors? Of course! There's no reason a beginner should take a lesson over myself or my peers over a certified instructor. But let's be realistic here.

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:56 am 
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My point David, was you don’t need to publicly respond to things like that, nor do other accomplished shooters, coaches, instructors, etc..

It’s beneath you to do so, and quite honestly, anyone considering hiring you, or another very established shooter to improve their game would not for an instant, be swayed by anything that popped up in CTN.


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:03 am 
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Rooster booster wrote:
My point David, was you don’t need to publicly respond to things like that, nor do other accomplished shooters, coaches, instructors, etc..

It’s beneath you to do so, and quite honestly, anyone considering hiring you, or another very established shooter to improve their game would not for an instant, be swayed by anything that popped up in CTN.


No, I'd actually agree with you on that, and it was tough for me to make the decision to respond to it -- and I actually wouldn't have if it were on any other platform than what it was published on. Or even if it was presented as opinion instead of fact, or if there was a response by a professional shooter allowed below it.

But just the circumstances that it all fell under, it was so off base I decided to respond -- if anything, just so it would prevent any further movement down the "slippery slope" in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:56 am 
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I do not agree with your premise that simply because you are an excellent shot that also automatically makes you an excellent teacher instructor. If you cannot teach to your student's learning style, then both of you are wasting your time.

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:57 am 
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David, an honest question:

I've been shooting 6 years, am a mid M class shooter age 63 and live in California. I occasionally win local shoots, do okay in big blasts occasionally RU or win a side event, usually punch in at least one side event. I lag in the mains and want to take my main game to the top level. I plan to take a lesson from somebody who's actually won the US Open and/or Nationals in say the past 5 years, and I'm not going to fly to the UK to take a lesson from Faulds. So now, which of you US pros do I choose, and why?

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:11 pm 
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oneounceload wrote:
I do not agree with your premise that simply because you are an excellent shot that also automatically makes you an excellent teacher instructor. If you cannot teach to your student's learning style, then both of you are wasting your time.


I can understand that. I don't agree but I understand. The reason why I think any of the top competitors in this game are valuable coaches is because of the level of self awareness that it takes to be at that level. Not every professional competitor is going to be a good coach for every student -- but you'll find one of them that works phenomenally. Why? Because in order for me to win a world championship, I have to be so in tune with my own body while I'm shooting that it's impossible for me not to see immediately what you're doing wrong while I'm behind you. I can watch you shoot and know exactly how it would feel if I were doing it, and pinpoint every single muscle you're using wrongly in that move and build you into doing it correctly step by step. Now, will I click perfectly with every student that comes to me? No. Will one of my peers click with you if I don't? Yes.

How do I know that it requires a world level proficiency at this game to teach like that? Because unless you're at that level you don't even feel or recognize those errors in your own move. This is fact. Why is that level of coaching better? Because it's a deeper level of understanding of the game. Instead of teaching you a different technique because the first one didn't work, we can ask why the first one didn't work and then correct that in your physiological response to the shot.

---

JacksBack,

To answer your question, come up with a long term goal plan on how you want your shooting career/hobby to go. Formulate a list of questions that you think you need to know in order to reach those goals. Call any of the guys up that you're considering and have an honest conversation with them, then base your decision off of that. I've found that's really effective. And if you need help with any of that let me know!

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 1:12 pm 
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The guy that coaches the U.S. Men's Track Team, isn't that fast, and walks with a limp.

Tiger Woods is one of the best golfers that has ever lived. He takes lessons from guys you're never heard of.

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 1:25 pm 
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ysr_racer wrote:
The guy that coaches the U.S. Men's Track Team, isn't that fast, and walks with a limp.

Tiger Woods is one of the best golfers that has ever lived. He takes lessons from guys you're never heard of.


All valid points and I agree on all of those, obviously, because they're facts. But sporting is different. Like I said, the guys at the top of the game are inventing how to play the game as we go. The scores have improved significantly in the past five years, let alone ten, yet the targets have become significantly harder. It's impossible to say that anybody but the people pushing the game forward can teach at that level, because there is no other avenue to understand that knowledge.

Golf has been around for hundreds of years, track and field even longer. There's nothing in the fundamentals and mechanical aspects of those games that is new. So it's possible to study and learn them without being a top competitor. It is the complete opposite in sporting. The game is too new, what we thought was the highest level of understanding three years ago, now isn't even applicable -- but you wouldn't know that unless you're forced to be building that knowledge base. Three years ago I believed fully in sustained lead, now I don't even really teach or use a technique.

There's no place to learn and master the highest level of this game unless you're part of the innovative group of competitors who are inventing how to do it right now.

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 1:53 pm 
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David Radulovich wrote:
Three years ago I believed fully in sustained lead, now I don't even really teach or use a technique.



David, care to expand on this statement - especially the second clause? Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Quote:
How do I know that it requires a world level proficiency at this game to teach like that? Because unless you're at that level you don't even feel or recognize those errors in your own move. This is fact. Why is that level of coaching better? Because it's a deeper level of understanding of the game. Instead of teaching you a different technique because the first one didn't work, we can ask why the first one didn't work and then correct that in your physiological response to the shot.


Mike Krzyzewski is considered by many to be one of the best all-time college basketball coaches, yet his playing skills were MEH at best
John Madden was considered one of the best football coaches in his time; his playing skills are non-existent.
Michael Jordan is considered by most to be the greatest basketball player ever, and his coaching skills sucked.

Sorry David, what works for YOU will NOT work for everyone else. A GREAT teacher/instructor first determines their student's learning style and capabilities and then adapts their lesson to that student. I know. I taught first graders for a few years and I had 18 students with zero through 3rd grade intelligence and no English to one reading Shakespeare. Lesson planning is a LOT tougher in that scenario than ANYTHING some shooting instructor is going to encounter.

As for Mr. Currie - if he is indeed claiming other peoples' work/ideas/statements as his own, there are legal remedies for that.

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:01 pm 
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David Radulovich wrote:
ysr_racer wrote:
The guy that coaches the U.S. Men's Track Team, isn't that fast, and walks with a limp.

Tiger Woods is one of the best golfers that has ever lived. He takes lessons from guys you're never heard of.


All valid points and I agree on all of those, obviously, because they're facts. But sporting is different. Like I said, the guys at the top of the game are inventing how to play the game as we go. The scores have improved significantly in the past five years, let alone ten, yet the targets have become significantly harder. It's impossible to say that anybody but the people pushing the game forward can teach at that level, because there is no other avenue to understand that knowledge.

Golf has been around for hundreds of years, track and field even longer. There's nothing in the fundamentals and mechanical aspects of those games that is new. So it's possible to study and learn them without being a top competitor. It is the complete opposite in sporting. The game is too new, what we thought was the highest level of understanding three years ago, now isn't even applicable -- but you wouldn't know that unless you're forced to be building that knowledge base. Three years ago I believed fully in sustained lead, now I don't even really teach or use a technique.

There's no place to learn and master the highest level of this game unless you're part of the innovative group of competitors who are inventing how to do it right now.


I disagree. Golf courses are getting longer and tougher. In baseball pitchers are starting to throw at 100 mph.

Alberto Pujols is a star hitter for the Los Angeles Angels. He holds multiple records.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pujols

Who's his batting coach? If the answer is, I don't know, that's my point.

Don't get me wrong, you top dogs are great shooters. And if there was any money to be made shooting sporting clays you wouldn't have to teach.

But I get it. No one is paying the bills by shooting clay targets.

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:07 pm 
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+1 Brad :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:15 pm 
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You guys are both talking about something completely different than I am.

There's a difference between courses getting harder, pitchers throwing faster, etc. and a sport evolving to require different approaches to even playing the game.

Totally different. One is swinging faster or harder, using different clubs, changing your timing, and the other is literally conceptualizing something completely new and using it to change your approach to the game.

The simple fact that you're still arguing a point I'm not even taking about proves the disconnect that I'm talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:27 pm 
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All sports, games, competition has shown dramatic progress over the past 3-4 decades. Some, like auto racing has evolved based more on equipment, others, the athlete has evolved.

Regardless of those factors, shooting clays isn’t excluded from normal evolution and progress. It’s shooting a flying disc, hardly magic. Those at the top display an amazing skill set, but understanding it is not confined to the few who can execute.




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