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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:16 pm 
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ysr_racer wrote:
You guys are right. I give up, there are only ten guy in the USA that know what they're doing, and are worth taking lessons from.

Happy now?


Brad,

You are either purposely trying to be a troll, or you haven't actually read the posts on this thread. Nobody has said that.

You earlier accused David R. of being too young to be taken seriously..... you have done the same to me on other threads on this forum. I find this very ironic, because you produce some of the most childish posts I've ever seen.



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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:54 pm
Posts: 792
ysr_racer wrote:
You guys are right. I give up, there are only ten guy in the USA that know what they're doing, and are worth taking lessons from.

Happy now?


You had me at "You guys are right. I give up ..." {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 1:01 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:47 pm
Posts: 2017
clayaddiction wrote:
ysr_racer wrote:
You guys are right. I give up, there are only ten guy in the USA that know what they're doing, and are worth taking lessons from.

Happy now?


Brad,

You are either purposely trying to be a troll, or you haven't actually read the posts on this thread. Nobody has said that.

You earlier accused David R. of being too young to be taken seriously..... you have done the same to me on other threads on this forum. I find this very ironic, because you produce some of the most childish posts I've ever seen.


Well I will be damn! Brad, childish??? Thats the only solid info in this 9 pages!!!


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 1:56 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:47 am
Posts: 7
Don
We see each other at shoots and gun clubs quite often and we’ve always been cordial with each other. I’ve never had any negative feelings toward or about you. But to pretend you weren’t speaking negatively about “pro shooters” who coach and propping up NSCA certified coaches in the article is just dishonest. And I take offense to that. You start the article off saying how dangerous generalizations can be. I’m going to be very specific. Yes you say that there are good and bad in both camps. But then you basically went on to list multiple reasons why you feel “pro shooters” who coach fall short and likely aren’t as good as NSCA certified coaches. As well as listing multiple reasons and ways in which you feel NSCA certified coaches have been trained and are likely better. Yes you finish up with saying that ultimately who you choose as coach depends on what you want to gain. But that’s after you spent an entire article selling people on the idea that there is more to gain with NSCA certified coaches. You’re entitled to your opinion. And now I’m going to give you mine. I’d like to tell you all about my personal experiences and why I believe “pro shooters” who coach are more likely great coaches and why NSCA certified coaches likely fall short. I’ve been competing in this sport for 28 years. Between my 7th and 17th year in the sport I taught a little here and there. I’ve now been working full time as a coach/instructor for over 10 years. Currently 90% of my total income comes from coaching. I absolutely love this game and want nothing more than to see it grow and flourish in every way possible. I believe that proper coaching at every level is a big part of this games prosperity and want to see coaching rise at every level. First off I know “pro shooters” who coach full time that I believe are not great coaches. Just because someone may be at the top of the game doesn’t mean they are a great coach. Honestly a lot of pros have flaws they don’t even realize but sometimes are talented enough to get away with it. Because of this they fail to teach some important parts of shotgun shooting that, in my opinion, they don’t fully understand themselves, and if taught, would be very helpful to their students. At the same time they are likely transferring at the very least some helpful knowledge to their students. But this is not the norm. Most “pro shooters” who coach understand every aspect of this game at an incredibly high level. And because of that are better suited to teach others that high level of understanding. Regardless of whether the student is trying to be a champion or is just a recreational shooter and wants to improve. I don’t believe that simply using the metric of how many champions did you produce, is the only measuring stick of what makes a great coach. At the end of the day it’s about being a great ambassador for the sport, making the game more enjoyable, giving sound advice and quite often, most importantly, helping shooters realize and get as close to their potential as their talent and level of commitment will allow. Don you live in Florida. I moved to Florida approximately 9 months ago and because of that move I have been working out of gun clubs where you’ve done a fair bit of teaching. And because of this I’ve worked with dozens of your former students, ironically including the woman pictured on the cover page of this article you wrote. From my personal experience with your former students it’s my opinion that you fail to properly teach them some of the most important and elementary fundamentals of shotgun shooting. Simple things such as balance, the proper level of tension in the hands, proper stance, body angle as it relates to the height of the target, gun angle/shoulder angle, how the body should operate to move the gun with the target, how to gain connection and control of the target, visual connection, finishing the shot properly and on and on. Things that I not only understand but know how to effectively teach. Things I teach to beginners on day one. Some of same things I also teach world and national champions that work with me on a regular basis. I’ve literally had former students of yours who hated shooting the gun you had built for and sold them because they were getting kicked so hard simply because they didn’t know how to hold and shoulder the gun properly. With a few adjustments they could handle the shotgun and the recoil much better regardless of the insane and unbelievably poor fitting stocks you’ve designed for them. I can spot them a mile away. I know who put those measurements together before they say a word. Your designs are quite unique. I can’t work out how you come of with those shapes or measurements or how you figure anyone will shoot those stock configurations accurately. The amount of money waisted on stocks at your recommendation is astounding. And thats only counting the ones I’ve seen. I’m sure there are countless others out there.
Technique, (I define as what we do with the gun in relation to the target) I believe is one of the most debatable things in proper shotgun shooting. We see a wide range of technique when it comes to the very best shotgun shooters in the world. I have a basic technique I use and feel is best as well as variations depending on the target but also understand and can teach variations of the techniques I use as well as techniques that work for other top shooters and teach what I feel it suites each particular students game best. Your generalization about “pro shooters” who coach being dogmatic when it comes to technique isn’t correct when it comes to me. I can’t speak for all the “pro shooters” who coach but my guess is that your generalization about them in this category is not the norm. And I have spoken with many “pro shooters” who coach on the topic of technique and know I’m not the only one who feels that a wide range of technical approach can work at all levels. So in my opinion your generalization on this topic couldn’t be further from the truth. Being balanced, relaxed, having the right mindset and looking at the target properly is much less debatable amongst the top shooters and we see more similarities across the board in those categories when it comes to the best shooters. Your article fails to mention anything on this topic and several of us feel these are some of the most important aspects we teach our students. That’s not to say we don’t see differences there as well. There are variations in stance, movement, mindset and tension levels. But most of us understand the pros and cons of the variations and know how to properly explain and teach them to our students. We know what works for us, what works for other top shooters and what won’t work well for anyone. I’ll admit that I have no formal training in teaching and I know nothing about what the NSCA instructor course offers in this area. But my former life running a business, time I’ve spent being coached by some of the best in the game, and decades of experience shooting and as a coach have been invaluable in me learning to teach, diagnose and communicate. I’ve made every mistake that can possibly be made. Learned from it, corrected it, had success, then made that mistake again. Over and over multiple times. At every level I know what the student has been through, is going through and what they will go through. I’ve reworked my stance. Changed my level of tension. Learned to properly look at the bird. Forgot how to look at the bird. Remembered....Shot every technical approach ever written about and almost every type of sporting shotgun ever built. Had ups and downs and climbed close to what I thought was the highest level attainable. Only to realize that there is a higher level and that I’m not even close. This is why I’m a great coach. I’ve been there. Been through it all. Put in countless hours learning it and attempting to perfect it myself. Learned from my best friends who I grew up playing this game with. Who happen to be the very best shooters in the world. There isn’t a course out there that can give you that. I’d like to add that there are probably only a couple pro shooters in sporting clays if that. The over whelming majority of people at the top of this sport are professional coaches that also shoot. And the majority of our students are not aspiring world champions. And you’ve insulted every one of us. Don Ive seen your scores. I see where your students are. What you’ve taught them and failed to teach them. I’ve seen the stocks you’ve built. I don’t know much about the NSCA certified instructor program. My opinion is based more in what I’ve seen from your former students. And in conclusion from what I’ve seen, in my opinion with you as the chief instructor this program can’t possibly help anyone beyond the very basics for beginners. And likely is a mediocre program for beginners at best.
I have another experience Id like to share. I recently contacted a club in Florida expressing interest in teaching there. I was referred to a board member who happens to be an instructor at the club and a level something NSCA certified coach. He basically told me he ran the idea of me coming past the other NSCA certified coaches and other board members at the club and that no one felt like it would be beneficial for the club or the members to have me teach at their club. I was told that they have very few aspiring all-Americans and that a professional coach such as myself wasn’t needed. That they believe fully in the NSCA certified program. Maybe they really believe that. Maybe they don’t realize that even the recreational guys can benefit from proper high level coaching. Maybe they think they are providing high level coaching. Maybe they thought they were protecting their own pockets and didn’t realize that having me there and learning from me would boost their business. I didn’t bring any of this up or say a negative word or let them know what I really thought. But that attitude is not serving our sport well. It’s not serving this club or it’s 800 members well by depriving every one of those people great coaching conveniently at their home club. Don don’t put down the top shooters who coach and pretend that wasn’t apparent in the article. We are the best source you have at one day becoming a decent coach yourself and the best source there is to put together a useful NSCA instructor program. And to answer the question about who is better....it’s obviously those at the top of the sport. Get your fear and ego out of the way and realize how much you have to learn and that most top shooters who coach understand the game and how to teach it at a level far beyond your currently ability.


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:20 pm 
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ZZzzzz-iiiinnnngggg


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:23 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 pm
Posts: 687
bopper wrote:
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{hs# {hs# boom ! mic drop right there

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Daivd, inquiring minds need to know: Did you type that last reply out on your cell phone?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:11 pm 
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That wasn't David.............:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:18 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 pm
Posts: 687
JacksBack wrote:
Daivd, inquiring minds need to know: Did you type that last reply out on your cell phone?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Are you referring to that long block of text posted by bradkiddjr? I'm not 100% sure, but sources say that might be Brad Kidd, Jr.

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:30 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:48 pm
Posts: 144
OMG, that tells us how much communication skills you have Too hard to read Have you heard of Return key? Space it and put it up again, please


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:58 pm 
Tournament Grade
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Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:21 am
Posts: 234
blackandgold wrote:
JacksBack wrote:
Daivd, inquiring minds need to know: Did you type that last reply out on your cell phone?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Are you referring to that long block of text posted by bradkiddjr? I'm not 100% sure, but sources say that might be Brad Kidd, Jr.


If Brad didn't post it, then someone's got his SGW account.

Here are all his previous 6 posts - https://goo.gl/gje1bg


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:55 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:59 pm
Posts: 320
Thanks Brad. You are respected in FL. DC not excluding newbies.


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:08 pm
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Browning Citori Guy wrote:
OMG, that tells us how much communication skills you have Too hard to read Have you heard of Return key? Space it and put it up again, please


Questioning communication skills, with the above sentence structure, capitalization, and punctuation?
Really?


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:15 pm 
Tournament Grade
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Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:21 am
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unplugged wrote:
Browning Citori Guy wrote:
OMG, that tells us how much communication skills you have Too hard to read Have you heard of Return key? Space it and put it up again, please


Questioning communication skills, with the above sentence structure, capitalization, and punctuation?
Really?


It was probably typed into a phone, which in an of itself would make it even more amazing, as Jack has already alluded...


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:50 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:48 pm
Posts: 144
Oh the irony

unplugged I do not claim to be be a touch typist

Have you no better contribution than grammar ?


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:31 am 
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Changed my mind

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Last edited by ysr_racer on Fri May 11, 2018 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:41 am 
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It is just unreal how some of you people can piss all over a good post.

The other real part is the fact that is all the same people.

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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:48 am 
Shooting Instructor
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Might be time to lock this one Curly. It seems to be going down hill. I think all concerned have made their feelings known but you will have to make that decision. Just my opinion.

Mike McAlpine

I would think that most of us are getting tired of this one.


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 Post subject: Re: interesting discussion on instructors
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:30 pm 
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Can't fault Don Currie for shameless self promotion. Gil Ash and a lot of others doing
it-including people on this forum.
Too many people trying to get a piece of the pie. Unfortunately it's a very small pie.




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