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 Post subject: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:32 am 
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Saw a post on Facebook where it’s claimed as a fact that fixed chokes pattern better than the same constriction of choke tube. Given how different guns pattern with a great deal of variation is this claim just internet expertise or has there been serious testing by someone with some expertise like Tom Roster?
FYI I now only use thin wall mods in both barrels so I like fixed chokes but appreciate the option if needed. Plus it will make the gun more attractive to a larger set of potential next owners.




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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:50 am 
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Possibly, maybe, sometimes is the answer.....theoretically speaking. Practically speaking, it doesn’t matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:59 am 
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I've certainly seen the claim over the years. But given the three dimensional nature of a shotgun pattern I don't see how such a thing can be claimed with any certainty.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:01 am 
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SmokeJS wrote:
Saw a post on Facebook where it’s claimed as a fact that fixed chokes pattern better than the same constriction of choke tube. Given how different guns pattern with a great deal of variation is this claim just internet expertise or has there been serious testing by someone with some expertise like Tom Roster?
FYI I now only use thin wall mods in both barrels so I like fixed chokes but appreciate the option if needed. Plus it will make the gun more attractive to a larger set of potential next owners.

A lot will depend on hoe well the barrel were tapped and threaded, whether the choke tube fits perfectly with no gas leak, etc. Personally, fixed chokes, properly made pattern just fine. I do not worry about whether the next owner will pay more, as I will be dead and that becomes the kids' problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:22 am 
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SmokeJS wrote:
Saw a post on Facebook where it’s claimed as a fact that fixed chokes pattern better than the same constriction of choke tube.


It isn't true, much less any sort of fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:32 am 
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All patterns are a compromise. The "name" or number on a choke is always relative to the shells , etc that one is shooting.

Anyone who claims a better pattern is a snake oil seller.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:58 am 
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Back in the late 90's when I was doing a lot of pigeon shooting we (several pigeon shooters and me) counted holes in paper. 1.25 oz 1330 fps loads.

There was 1-2% more (or less) holes in a 30 inch circle from one factory or aftermarket choke than the other --as long as we were comparing .020 chokes to other .020 chokes(or .035, you name it).

The conventional wisdom was .025 at the boxes and .035 for the 2nd (and last) shot. Our "research" basically confirmed this.

If you assume that .000 (cyl) is the biggest pattern and .042 the tightest usable shooting flying pattern. , anything in between is a compromise , one way of the other.

Dr A Jones work reconfirmed this 20 yrs later.

I used to have a 20g Perazzi that was .010 overbore of nominal 20g. It was choked , per the 20g standards at Mod and I Mod. It made the tightest patterns I have ever seen. Full and X-Full. It was a great dove gun at 60 yds. But --for everyday use these patterns were too much and I had Briley put in their excellent thin-wall chokes.

I have never counted holes in paper since.

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Last edited by sera on Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:02 am 
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I think all of the varied choke conversations are so subjective that it all boils down to what one trusts and has confidence in.

Tighter chokes whether fixed or done with choke tubes in my thought process should yield a more consistent delivery of the shot charge down range. That only helps if the shooter has the skills and experience to send it to the right spot. Typically fixed chokes are relatively tight

Balance and handling and swing dynamics could be a more viable reason to choose fixed versus interchangeable chokes. But again a shooter with more advanced skills would get more mileage out of this. I am certainly not in that category

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:18 am 
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SmokeJS wrote:
Saw a post on Facebook where it’s claimed as a fact that fixed chokes pattern better than the same constriction of choke tube.


https://www.amazon.com/Sporting-Shotgun ... 0956662706

It takes no particular expertise to count holes in paper, just time and hassle . . . which is why so few do it.

What do you think a "better pattern" looks like?

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:31 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
SmokeJS wrote:
Saw a post on Facebook where it’s claimed as a fact that fixed chokes pattern better than the same constriction of choke tube.


https://www.amazon.com/Sporting-Shotgun ... 0956662706

It takes no particular expertise to count holes in paper, just time and hassle . . . which is why so few do it.

What do you think a "better pattern" looks like?


When I saw the Facebook post and the certainty of the poster I thought I’d ask this group as better patterns weren’t an attribute of fixed chokes that I’d heard before.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:41 am 
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Facebook has more baloney than ...... here. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:46 am 
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Does a "Full Choke" produce a better pattern than an "Improved Cylinder Choke"?

A reasonable answer is, yes, it produces a more efficient pattern: pattern efficiencies are how patterns are graded. Yet, the "better pattern" of full chokes is as much a negative on the skeet field as much as it is an advantage at 27 yard trap.

Many people don't want better patterns, for it is just a matter of using AA's or STS shotshells vs. the cheaper soft-shot shotshells that are most often used. At least, they don't want them nearly bad enough to pay for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:30 pm 
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Randy, that is the first time I have seen anyone mention better patterns. 'Better', where shotgun patterns are concerned is very elusive and more about selling choke tubes and barrel work, than anything tangible.

Glad you brought that out.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:29 pm 
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Shoot 10 patterns with the same ammo and choke tube, and you will get a relatively pure Gaussian distribution of actual pattern diameters running from nearly one whole step more open that stated to one whole step tighter than stated. Same for a fixed-choke gun. The difference *may* be that the fixed choke gun starts a quarter choke tighter at the open end and ends a quarter choke tighter at the tight end, or maybe even the tails end up a quarter choke closer to the mean -- point is, there's a LOT of cross-over when it comes to actual pattern percentages...

About the only certain thing I'd say about chokes, loads and patterns, is using a tighter choke with good ammo will generate a tighter pattern on average -- most of the time :)

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:49 am 
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I have a fixed choke 20 gauge that patterns way tighter than my interchangeable choke 20


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:55 am 
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so , you're saying you cannot find an interchangeable choke that will equal the other gun?

Or that the fixed choke gun is sloppily marked?

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:20 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
pattern efficiencies are how patterns are graded.


Do you mean pattern densities, e.g. 90%, 70%?


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Mallard Cutter wrote:
I have a fixed choke 20 gauge that patterns way tighter than my interchangeable choke 20


I'd be willing to bet,
with the same shells, and the same amount of constriction (not going by what markings say), the two guns pattern similarly density wise.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:04 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
SmokeJS wrote:
Saw a post on Facebook where it’s claimed as a fact that fixed chokes pattern better than the same constriction of choke tube.


It isn't true, much less any sort of fact.


explain..........a few guys I know that shoot fixed choke guns say otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:35 pm 
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If a bbl's choke is marked Lt Mod but it throws a I Mod pattern , then it's really an I Mod.

If it throws an I Mod pattern w/ certain ammo , then it's an I Mod until you find and use some other ammo. There are a few slight differences between ammo brands.

And it's never exactly the same. 2 shells on the same row in a box of ammo WILL throw slightly different patterns, always has , always will.

When one uses "enough" choke, ammo differences--even slight in nature--are mostly nullified.

Jack didn't really have magic beans nor was there a giant at the top of the beanstalk.



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