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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Again....what is a ‘better’ pattern?

If it gets the job done, and you hit 99 straight, then miss, it sure as hell wasnt because the one ‘not better’ pattern suddenly showed up.

I shot a fixed choke Perazzi for 22 years. Loved the way it broke targets. For the past 5 years, I’ve been shooting another gun with screw chokes, Love the way it breaks targets.

What a guy said, or a Facebook claim means exactly JS. I do believe that quality guns of fixed or interchangeable are in the ‘good enough plus’ category. Learning where to point the gun for a given target always has, and always will be far more important than dickering over a given choke.




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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Rooster booster wrote:
Learning where to point the gun for a given target always has, and always will be far more important than dickering over a given choke.



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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:52 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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I had to be taught that:-), wasn’t smart enough to figure it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:39 am 
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ShowMe wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
pattern efficiencies are how patterns are graded.


Do you mean pattern densities, e.g. 90%, 70%?


No, pattern efficiencies which are not barometers of density.

Throw 1-1/4 oz. of #7-1/2 shot and compare it to 1-1/4 oz. of #5 or #6 . . . the smaller shot pattern has better density. It doesn't mean it is a more efficient pattern at all. You get more density by increasing payload and / or using smaller shot.

So-called "tighter patterns" are better patterns. If it isn't better, it wouldn't be called an improvement . . . as in Improved Cylinder, Improved Modified, and so forth. It may not be better for a certain application, it may be far worse, but the real question is at what range and against what target kill zone?

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:45 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm
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Many of the early versions of factory choke tubes were very short. It's almost impossible to get bona fide full choke performance from them.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:35 pm
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Location: Olympia, WA
My Parcours hits targets a lot harder than my Blaser did. I have only patterned the K80 once though. Thee David Radulovich has also remarked that fixed choke guns pattern better than tube guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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Maybe it fits you better?


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:20 pm 
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edgerat wrote:
My Parcours hits targets a lot harder than my Blaser did. I have only patterned the K80 once though. Thee David Radulovich has also remarked that fixed choke guns pattern better than tube guns.


Are the choke dimensions the same? Is it possible one has more constriction?


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:14 am 
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Both guns were fit by the same person, mod/imod in the Blaser, mod/lt full in my Parcours. I am not trolling anyone, just my experience :)


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:19 am 
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edgerat wrote:
My Parcours hits targets a lot harder than my Blaser did.


How much harder? What does a lot harder mean? Based on what evidence? What pattern diameter is better?

There is zero evidence that solid chokes do anything better except they don't shoot loose. There is no evidence that a so-called longer choke provides any measurable benefit whatsoever.

There is more evidence of the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot-- at least in those cases, there are pictures. Never smarten up a chump.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:26 am 
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edgerat wrote:
My Parcours hits targets a lot harder than my Blaser did.


My screw-choked 680 Beretta hits targets much harder than my fixed choke 1100.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:15 am 
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edgerat wrote:
Both guns were fit by the same person, mod/imod in the Blaser, mod/lt full in my Parcours. I am not trolling anyone, just my experience :)


Even with similar fit, an F3(?) and a Parcours balance and swing differently. Maybe that difference works for you, and you center targets better with the Parcours? May be the chokes, but it may be some other imponderables as well. Enjoy the Parcours; they are wonderful guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:13 am 
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Location: Olympia, WA
mwr01 wrote:
edgerat wrote:
Both guns were fit by the same person, mod/imod in the Blaser, mod/lt full in my Parcours. I am not trolling anyone, just my experience :)


Even with similar fit, an F3(?) and a Parcours balance and swing differently. Maybe that difference works for you, and you center targets better with the Parcours? May be the chokes, but it may be some other imponderables as well. Enjoy the Parcours; they are wonderful guns.


all good points, could very well be a combination of several things that make me shoot it better.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:03 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:51 am
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Bottom line is use enough choke and you don't have to worry about patterns. Using mod or tighter, shells make more of a difference at 35 and beyond..


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 7:55 am
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RandyWakeman wrote:
edgerat wrote:
My Parcours hits targets a lot harder than my Blaser did.


How much harder? What does a lot harder mean? Based on what evidence? What pattern diameter is better?

There is zero evidence that solid chokes do anything better except they don't shoot loose. There is no evidence that a so-called longer choke provides any measurable benefit whatsoever.

There is more evidence of the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot-- at least in those cases, there are pictures. Never smarten up a chump.


So are you arguing that a longer choke won't help pattern the shot better and keep it more uniformed longer? And or improve the pattern density?

I bet the guys at Perazzi making barrels for fixed choke guns would argue otherwise. There is a reason guys like Wendal and David R shoot fixed choke guns. Oddly enough they are Perazzi's as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:12 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:

There is zero evidence that solid chokes do anything better except they don't shoot loose. There is no evidence that a so-called longer choke provides any measurable benefit whatsoever.


Briley discovered he could not get short choke tubes to produce bona fide full choke performance. That's why he developed his extended chokes.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:43 am 
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ShowMe wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:

There is zero evidence that solid chokes do anything better except they don't shoot loose. There is no evidence that a so-called longer choke provides any measurable benefit whatsoever.


Briley discovered he could not get short choke tubes to produce bona fide full choke performance. That's why he developed his extended chokes.


Are there full refunds for fraudulently marked flush tubes? :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:03 am 
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Looking at that chart, I would certainly expect that the difference in the 2 lines plotted is, indeed, statistically significant. Do not feel like doing a t test this morning, but how could it not be?


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:44 am 
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Bill M. wrote:
Looking at that chart, I would certainly expect that the difference in the 2 lines plotted is, indeed, statistically significant.


Regardless, the flush Briley choke outperformed the extended Briley choke.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:10 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Bill M. wrote:
Looking at that chart, I would certainly expect that the difference in the 2 lines plotted is, indeed, statistically significant.


Regardless, the flush Briley choke outperformed the extended Briley choke.

My first question is did the constriction measure the same. Without knowing that its hard to come to any conclusion.




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