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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:17 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:48 pm
Posts: 540
ShowMe wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:

There is zero evidence that solid chokes do anything better except they don't shoot loose. There is no evidence that a so-called longer choke provides any measurable benefit whatsoever.


Briley discovered he could not get short choke tubes to produce bona fide full choke performance. That's why he developed his extended chokes.

Gil shared a different storyline on the development of extended chokes:

https://ospschool.com/blog/201-gil-s-blog-2-14




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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:15 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 5707
MTR wrote:
ShowMe wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:

There is zero evidence that solid chokes do anything better except they don't shoot loose. There is no evidence that a so-called longer choke provides any measurable benefit whatsoever.


Briley discovered he could not get short choke tubes to produce bona fide full choke performance. That's why he developed his extended chokes.

Gil shared a different storyline on the development of extended chokes:

https://ospschool.com/blog/201-gil-s-blog-2-14


Actually Gil doesn't give a different storyline. He never addresses why Briley first developed extended chokes, it speaks of Briley's astonishment when they became popular for reasons other than why he developed them. The reasons for his development of extended chokes and his surprise at their popularity were explained to me by Briley himself.

Part of his surprise at the popularity was there were screw-in chokes before before Briley developed his Thin Wall chokes. Those earlier screw-ins were all extended chokes. They were ugly. Shooters didn't like them. Shooters didn't buy them. Consequently, Briley developed is Thin Wall chokes so they weren't extended.

When Briley told me this, he also added he was a bit worried about the the long-term consequences of shooters only tightening extended chokes 'finger-tight'. At that time he felt that even extended chokes should be snugged with a wrench.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 7:55 am
Posts: 584
in the world of board room wisdom, that chart would scream "excel spread sheet super star" ten pellet difference looks like a net 40% gain.............total joke. I also question the load used, the brand of shell, the gun, too many variables here to just post a graph and claim your the winner.

It's simple to me, one solid piece of metal that gently tapers is always going to perform better then something that screws in, leaks gas, creates buildup and tapers more sharply.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:41 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:

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So what length are those chokes? It makes a difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 5707
RandyWakeman wrote:
ShowMe wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
pattern efficiencies are how patterns are graded.


Do you mean pattern densities, e.g. 90%, 70%?


No, pattern efficiencies which are not barometers of density.


So what the heck is "pattern efficiencies"?


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:22 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5355
There isn’t one shooter in 10,000 that could tell the difference between screw chokes and fixed chokes, while shooting at birds or targets.

This is assuming the constrictions are comparable, using the same ammunition, and both types of cokes are cut square to the bore........maybe 1/10,000 is too close now that I think about is some more.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:55 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:35 pm
Posts: 326
Location: Olympia, WA
RandyWakeman wrote:
edgerat wrote:
My Parcours hits targets a lot harder than my Blaser did.


How much harder? What does a lot harder mean? Based on what evidence? What pattern diameter is better?

There is zero evidence that solid chokes do anything better except they don't shoot loose. There is no evidence that a so-called longer choke provides any measurable benefit whatsoever.

There is more evidence of the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot-- at least in those cases, there are pictures. Never smarten up a chump.


harder than a Fabarms shooting a going away trap shot in a field in the midwest.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:55 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:50 pm
Posts: 253
I have a fixed choke K80 Parcours and MX8 20ga - they have better pattern density and distribution than my Briley thin walls.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:55 am 
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That's fine if shooting long range targets. But having a tighter pattern is not so great when shooting an 8 yd rabbit. If better means tighter , fine but what about the occasions where better is MOST OPEN ???

So--all patterns fit on a continuous scale. Sometimes one is better and sometimes awful.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:54 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm
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sera wrote:
That's fine if shooting long range targets. But having a tighter pattern is not so great when shooting an 8 yd rabbit. If better means tighter , fine but what about the occasions where better is MOST OPEN ???

So--all patterns fit on a continuous scale. Sometimes one is better and sometimes awful.


{hs#

Every choke is perfect at some distance.


Last edited by ShowMe on Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 7:55 am
Posts: 584
ShowMe wrote:
sera wrote:
That's fine if shooting long range targets. But having a tighter pattern is not so great when shooting an 8 yd rabbit. If better means tighter , fine but what about the occasions where better is MOST OPEN ???

So--all patterns fit on a continuous scale. Sometimes one is better and sometimes awful.


{hs#

Every pattern is perfect at some distance.


Bingo!

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 5707
gdub41 wrote:
ShowMe wrote:

{hs#

Every pattern is perfect at some distance.


Bingo!


Reading this I realized I should have written "Every CHOKE is perfect at some distance."

I've edited my original post.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:21 am
Posts: 362
ShowMe wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:

Image


So what length are those chokes? It makes a difference.


Randy, please remember to give Neil Winston proper visible attribution when you post/reference his data; as in each and every use. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:38 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
Posts: 26
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Cherry and Radulovich also get beaten at times by top shooters who have tubes and change....They do what gives them confidence, others change for the same reason....

Patterns on a piece of paper don't tell all the story....Patterns in the air are three dimensional, add in how fast a target is passing thru the pattern and it adds a 4th dimension....Paper patterns other than for POI tell little of what goes on in the air.

Dimension 5 and 6: does your favorite choice-fixed or changeable-perform the same at 8000 in Colorado as it does at sea level in New Jersey. We don’t shoot in a vacuum, so what happens on a windy day?

If it is round, dense enough to make you happy and POA and POI are spot on, then fixed or changeable has little to do with your XXXX’s at the end of the day.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:42 am 
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I know I am late to the dance but........The first thing you have to establish is, what are 'better' patterns.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:47 am 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2012 3:12 pm
Posts: 491
Location: Central Texas
Fixed chokes give you less to think about... shoot enough choke and live stress free.

DL


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:37 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 4772
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
"Every choke is perfect at some distance".
True, assuming it throws evenly distributed patterns. The perfect pattern has all of it's pellets evenly distributed & is dense enough that the bird can't slip through without receiving a lethal dose of hits. However, in the real world, it is pretty impossible to develop such a choke, not to mention arranging all of your shots to be at a specific distance. Custom gunsmiths in earlier times would choke guns by a process of "ream & shoot" until they had the best pattern they could get. The trick was knowing when to stop. That process today would cost more than most people pay for a house & then it was only good for one load & one size shot!
Quite a lot of research has gone into choke tube research & they are very good. I have a ton of them, although I only use a few on a regular basis. Which is better, fixed or tube?? Well, it depends on at least 3 things. Which tube, which fixed choke & what pattern I want. Most of the load development I have done was centered around pass shooting & long range waterfowl loads. Choke tubes have produced patterns for that, that are as good as it gets. High density shot can't be used in my fixed choke guns but in choke tubes, the patterns will kill further than I will shoot at ducks or geese! Yet, I have guns with fixed chokes that you couldn't pay me enough money to touch. The constriction runs from IC to extra full!
Things that impact pattern percentages are shot size, type of shot, amount of shot, & the wad column, among others. There are many things that affect the pattern & the choke at the end of the barrel is just one of them, although it is the most influential thing!


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:32 pm 
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Chokes are low on the list of shooting good scores and or what most competitive shooters would consider to be “Good”. -For all of shotgun sports.

It just so happens that chokes are easily the most “indecision-affliction” in all of shotgun shooting. Right behind what lens color for what background, etc. Every experienced shooter worth their weight in lead will find their “Go to” choke/ammo combination in the field or in the crucible of competition(s).

Chokes won’t make you a better shooter; however shooting tighter chokes will give you more confidence with diesel smoke breaks. Confidence is the #1 most important component of excellent shooting. When I blow targets up and run stands, my own personal stock goes up, way up. -I’m confident with the results of my equipment.

Lenses may give you better contrast but don’t do a damn thing to improve your focus or fix flaws in your fundamentals. But the broad spectrum of shooters will blame both the above rather than themselves, in the end.

Determine your correct POI on both a 2D (Plate) and 3D (actual shooting) performance testing is way more important than choke. Your choke matters very little when your POI is incorrect. Most shooters don’t understand this concept and I for one, hope they are playing the money options at any tournament in the future.

There have been plenty of championships won with a pair of .015’s and #8’s in sporting clays and the right guy behind the trigger. If you think you need more and can justify it with increasing your score, then do it. If you shoot a tighter choke and your score goes down then your going in the wrong direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5355
CubaLibre wrote:
Chokes are low on the list of shooting good scores and or what most competitive shooters would consider to be “Good”. -For all of shotgun sports.

It just so happens that chokes are easily the most “indecision-affliction” in all of shotgun shooting. Right behind what lens color for what background, etc. Every experienced shooter worth their weight in lead will find their “Go to” choke/ammo combination in the field or in the crucible of competition(s).

Chokes won’t make you a better shooter; however shooting tighter chokes will give you more confidence with diesel smoke breaks. Confidence is the #1 most important component of excellent shooting. When I blow targets up and run stands, my own personal stock goes up, way up. -I’m confident with the results of my equipment.

Lenses may give you better contrast but don’t do a damn thing to improve your focus or fix flaws in your fundamentals. But the broad spectrum of shooters will blame both the above rather than themselves, in the end.

Determine your correct POI on both a 2D (Plate) and 3D (actual shooting) performance testing is way more important than choke. Your choke matters very little when your POI is incorrect. Most shooters don’t understand this concept and I for one, hope they are playing the money options at any tournament in the future.

There have been plenty of championships won with a pair of .015’s and #8’s in sporting clays and the right guy behind the trigger. If you think you need more and can justify it with increasing your score, then do it. If you shoot a tighter choke and your score goes down then your going in the wrong direction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Excellent! This ought to be a sticky!


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed choke gives better patterns?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 4772
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
I'll take your word for it, as far as clay targets go. I don't keep score on clays, I practice the shots I have trouble with until I correct the problem. It works that way shooting birds too, to a great extent. No matter what you shoot, the first order of business is to hit the target. However, in the game fields, the wrong choke or the wrong size shot can & does result in lost cripples. There is much more diversity in the size of the targets, the range, & the shot sizes it takes to kill hunting wild game & more opportunity to screw up! There is a lot of difference between shooting at a clay target with 7.5's & a 10 lb. goose @ 60 yds. with BB's. Miss a clay target & all you've lost is a shotgun shell & a little bit of ego. Wound a goose & we have lost a game bird!




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