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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:03 pm 
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lt0026 wrote:
How about Kemen? Cheap knockoff clones will disappear in a few years in the US.


Whatever one could say about Kemen's failure in the US, it was/is not a cheap clone. It is an excellent clone. George Digweed and Richard Faulds, among others, used it to win a few championships. Even King Juan Carlos of Spain is said to use one. Cheers.




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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:31 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:09 pm
Posts: 1338
Location: Mount Pleasant, Iowa
Vikram,
You are correct. Kemen and Salvinelli are not cheap clones.
I had a Salvinelli and really liked it!


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5591
Where is Salvinelli in the USA today?


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:09 pm
Posts: 1338
Location: Mount Pleasant, Iowa
"Where is Salvinelli in the USA today?"

It doesn't matter.
I said it's not a cheap clone but is a quality gun!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5591
Couldn't compete in the US market. Ditto Kemen.


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:09 pm
Posts: 1338
Location: Mount Pleasant, Iowa
That is true.


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:19 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:20 pm
Posts: 520
Location: Mississippi
It's interesting, and heresy, but all the clones (Kemen, Zoli, Salvinelli and ProStar) are intrinsically better guns and better values than the original. The Perazzi is a great gun with a great legacy and elite brand recognition and folks enjoy those attributes, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:21 pm
Posts: 672
lt0026 wrote:
Couldn't compete in the US market. Ditto Kemen.


Many great guns (including Kemen) fail, not because of the quality of the gun, but because of the quality of the importer. Most importers don't seem to have the knowledge, nor the willingness to put forth the effort to break in to the competition shotgun market.

Look at Zoli shotguns. When they were imported by Verona (and briefly, Dakota Arms), they languished. Coles Gunsmithing did a better job, but frankly, had their hands full with their focus on Beretta and other work. It wasn't until Zoli USA was stood up, started traveling to shoots, sponsoring shooters, sponsoring shoots, and promoting their guns that they really took off. Now they're regarded as great guns and are pretty popular in competition shooting, particularly in sporting clays.

As a counterpoint, look at Rizzini. From what I've heard, their importer Fierce Products (Rizzini USA is owned by them) is a three person shop that barely answers the phone, much less emails. Their main thing appears to be their Fierce Arms bolt-action rifles...Rizzini looks like a sideline for them. Their website appears to be a little out of date and could contain more information. Have they been sponsoring any shooters, sponsoring any tournaments, or showing up at shoots to let folks demo their guns and service Rizzinis shot by competitors? I know I don't get out much so I might be uninformed, but I haven't heard of it, and if they are, there's certainly no evidence of it on their website. I've seen it happen with other gun manufacturers...EAA has been an absolutely horrific importer of Tanfoglio products. In the practical pistol world, the World Champ for the past several years has shot a Tanfoglio, yet Tanfoglio has virtually zero penetration in the US in USPSA shooting...they just suck at promotion and at service.

I just can't fathom how so many European manufacturers can let such crappy importers represent their companies and sell their guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:15 pm 
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mpolans wrote:
I just can't fathom how so many European manufacturers can let such crappy importers represent their companies and sell their guns.


My guess is that big time importers/dealers are already full up with established quality products.

This means that unless the mfg wants to spend the money to import and distribute themselves in the US (by setting up a US presence), they are left to whoever can come up with enough $ to place an order and sign a contract (I'm sure there are dozens of Asian and European mfgs that would love to have ANY toehold int he US market, and would jump at the first offer), I doubt they have multiple importers beating down their doors to sell their product (given the market saturation for most aspects of the firearm industry few established players NEED another line of products to sell and compete against themselves with, they need something that isn't already covered, which is pretty rare). Most of these small time guys simply won't have the wherewithal to sponsor shooters, shoots, offer countrywide service, ect.

You could add Blaser to the list as well, they were basically non-existent when imported by Sig. Then there's the FAIR Rizzini importer, who sold me a gun with a RH palm swell, right hand cast, and right hand toe out as a left hand gun (at least they took it back, and made me whole with only minor arm twisting LOL).

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Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:20 pm
Posts: 520
Location: Mississippi
The opposite of that is Caesar Guerini who seems to have gotten the marketing, distribution and service right. Zoli’s success came through Norbert’s and Jason’s strong efforts.


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:42 pm 
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Scardog7 wrote:
The opposite of that is Caesar Guerini who seems to have gotten the marketing, distribution and service right. Zoli’s success came through Norbert’s and Jason’s strong efforts.


But CG has CGUSA as an importer and distributer, IE themselves. Best I can find was that CGUSA existed since 2003, I'm not sure if there was another importer before that but I don't remember one.

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S3 Smingler Shotgun Sports
Ian Smingler
585-613-8098
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.webs.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:20 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5591
B. Rizzini is very popular in Europe and they do sponsor many shoots and shooters. They have had numerous importers here in the states. Coles, Sig, CSMC and now Fierce. I did purchase one, a BR320. Courtney was very helpful. It was a good gun and I did need parts, Fierce had them. I always called on the phone, they never answered e-mails. The web site isn't up to date or accurate and many items have been out of stock for a long time. Don't go by what inventory you see on the site. They advertise a lifetime warranty. I can't speak to how responsive the service is. I replaced firing pins and springs. I did so because the cost of the parts were less than shipping the entire gun. Lot's of Rizzini's make guns. Know which one your dealing with. B. Rizzini and CG make an average gun look nice. The relationship between B. Rizzini and Guerini is well documented.


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:57 am 
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Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1324
LT it's almost like that list of importers is a road map to failure. Just putting 'we now sell xxxxx' on your website isn't marketing. The key to success really seems to be a strong domestic marketing and service presence as shown by CG. And by strong i don't mean a couple guys with facebook pages.


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:10 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:40 am
Posts: 244
Location: Houston, TX and Fairfield Glade, TN
I am new at all of this so I wouldn't recognize many of the names, nor their reputations. Reading this, and other shooting sites, has made me familiar with a lot of manufacturers.

As far as CG (which I had never heard of before), its advs' on this site pop up so often that I actually think I know them!

Good advertising is good placement. Their adv. here works, at least as far as name recognition.... for this old codger.


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:26 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5591
birdhunter39 wrote:
LT it's almost like that list of importers is a road map to failure. Just putting 'we now sell xxxxx' on your website isn't marketing. The key to success really seems to be a strong domestic marketing and service presence as shown by CG. And by strong i don't mean a couple guys with facebook pages.

Many really good shotgun makers outside the US have a strong foothold in the US. You need to realize that the markup on guns really isn't that great. Kolar is the only high quality target O/U made in the US, ever wonder why? Developing a strong dealership network is crucial. A reliable, fairly priced product, good dealerships and service sells. CG has increased prices very quickly, the Summit Series is overpriced. JMHO. And those pit stops are priced into those high prices. The Turkish guns will always have a stigma attached to them in the US and thus very low resale.


Last edited by lt0026 on Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:35 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:37 am
Posts: 3876
Location: Tbilisi,Georgia
lt0026 wrote:
Couldn't compete in the US market. Ditto Kemen.


Market failure does not make them cheap guns. They are actually very good guns. Please do look up Kemen's record. George Digweed is perhaps the greatest sporting clays shooter ever and he used a Kemen to win several championships. It is said that, when he switched to Perazzi, he had his Perazzi built to his Kemen specs.


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:40 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5591
When you can't compete it usually means a few things. Product, dealership network, service, value, marketing issues and terrible resale. Those are usually lacking. FYI, Digweed won lots with a 682. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:08 am 
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The difference is that those guns started with a good reputation in Europe. Yildiz is known in the U.S. It's known as a $400 shotgun of questionable quality. If you think it is a good $400 shotgun that's okay, but it's still a low end gun. They have attempted to jump from $400 guns to $4000 guns. They needed to go toe to toe with the entry level Berettas and Brownings and prove their capabilities. They skipped that market and have no proof they can build a quality competition gun. You can take a chance on one, but you are taking a chance and you know it. I'll pay $8k plus for a gun that I know is good, but risking $4000 just doesn't make sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:23 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5591
If I wanted a real Perazzi, I would buy one. I wouldn't buy a gun marketed as an almost Perrazi just for the sake of a good deal on price.


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 Post subject: Re: Yildiz ProStar series?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:26 am 
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Location: Tbilisi,Georgia
lt0026 wrote:
When you can't compete it usually means a few things. Product, dealership network, service, value, marketing issues and terrible resale. Those are usually lacking. FYI, Digweed won lots with a 682. :)


All the issues you raise, except product, are correct. Kemen faltered in the US not because it was a cheap clone. It costs as much as a Perazzi and more in some cases. :D {hs#

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews/sh ... gun-review

Quote:
He managed to lure George Digweed away from his favourite Berettas, and George thanked him with a huge string of competition successes both at home and abroad.

The year 1997 could be called the year of the Kemen. In that year George used one to win the World and European FITASC titles, and the World Compak championship with a record 200-straight.

Richard Faulds, then still a junior, was also in on the Kemen act. He took the World and European FITASC Junior titles, and added the European Double Trap title for good measure.


Digweed is supposed to have said, "There isn`t a better competition gun than a 682, there are only more expensive guns."




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