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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:20 pm 
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Location: Indian Head Country Wisconsin
While some of the sporties on a clays course would wet there panties, we actually require a person hunting in our group to stove pipe a live round in their gun anytime they leave the layout blind. Guns unattended in a layout blind are pointing at whomever is walking around in front of the blinds. A stovepipe gun absolutely will not fire, is easily seen, and no one is walking around in front of a loaded gun pointing at them with a safety on or maybe not if a dude is careless. It’s fast and quick. Slide shell out of chamber and close bolt on it while it’s pointing out the side of the chamber. No need to unload all the shells in the gun. Very handy on snow goose with extended mag! And yes, I’ve missed birds on the next flight by having one stove piped and forgetting to reload.




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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:25 pm 
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moishepipick wrote:
Relying on the operator to not make a mistake is fine, but not as fine as a method that more closely approaches fail-safe or as we used to call it in less politically correct times, foolproof. An open O/U more closely approaches foolproof than the other options being discussed here.


Following that logic, a pump, lever, or bolt action is safer still.

There’s really only two gun safety rules that matter, and neither one has to do with the type of mechanism. Trying to legislate machinery over behavior is a very poor way to approach any issue with ‘safety’ as part of the discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:44 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:36 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Nebraska
moishepipick wrote:
Relying on the operator to not make a mistake is fine, but not as fine as a method that more closely approaches fail-safe or as we used to call it in less politically correct times, foolproof. An open O/U more closely approaches foolproof than the other options being discussed here.


The grave and unavoidable flaw in this type of reasoning is that you are okay with lessening the serious and mortal responsibility of the individual firearm operator and substituting it with that of an inanimate object that you believe to be more safe than other types of inanimate objects. You can’t have any discussion about gun safety without acknowledging the central role of human action and decision-making (or lack thereof) in the outcome of a single trigger pull. There is no fail safe or even degrees of fail safe.

I’m usually in agreement with Randy on most things and though chamber indictors clearly have their place on a busy rifle range, they are a ridiculous idea on a shotgun range without any historical basis or need and, again, look to some inanimate object to provide a false sense of safety.

The rules aren’t that difficult here folks: 1) open action and 2) unloaded until on station and ready to shoot. If people can’t make these simple rules work, no type of gun or gadget can help them be safe. The first violation or two is best addressed by prompt, clear, and direct enforcement. After that, expulsion or just refusing to shoot with them is appropriate.


Last edited by upland refugee on Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:48 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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Bingo!^


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:12 pm 
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Shotgun target shooting is boringly safe. It doesn't even rank: https://www.tiebreaker.com/deadliest-sp ... th-ranked/ .

Cheerleading is far more dangerous:
Quote:
Falls are absurdly common in the sport, and per year there are something around 30,000 hospitalizations. Yikes. What’s worse is that a number of these injuries result in permanent paralysis. Wave goodbye to that career in cheerleading. Anyway, a handful of deaths have also resulted from tragic falls. Keep this in mind before your next bend-and-snap.

Dangers: Broken bones, paralysis, death
Death count: Around 30,000 hospitalizations per year, a handful of deaths


Simple falls account for approximately 13,000 deaths each year and countless injuries.

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It is a non-issue in search of no fix.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:18 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5395
RandyWakeman wrote:
Shotgun target shooting is boringly safe. It doesn't even rank: https://www.tiebreaker.com/deadliest-sp ... th-ranked/ .

Cheerleading is far more dangerous:
Quote:
Falls are absurdly common in the sport, and per year there are something around 30,000 hospitalizations. Yikes. What’s worse is that a number of these injuries result in permanent paralysis. Wave goodbye to that career in cheerleading. Anyway, a handful of deaths have also resulted from tragic falls. Keep this in mind before your next bend-and-snap.

Dangers: Broken bones, paralysis, death
Death count: Around 30,000 hospitalizations per year, a handful of deaths


Simple falls account for approximately 13,000 deaths each year and countless injuries.

Image

It is a non-issue in search of no fix.


Correct. Which is why your ‘suggestion’ for an empty chamber flag was ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:20 pm 
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Malcolm7 wrote:
I used an 1100 for sporting clays for several years, and still do so as a backup.

It was so easy to use an empty chamber indicator to assure others - at a glance - that the gun was unloaded between stations and while on the rack. It became part of my routine and fellow shooters appreciated it. The indicators came in a pack with more than I needed, so I ended up giving many of them away when asked where I got them.

Evidently these are common at three gun matches, and work just as well for clay target events.


Rooster booster wrote:

Correct. Which is why your ‘suggestion’ for an empty chamber flag was ridiculous.


Except that it wasn't my suggestion.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:33 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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Hahahaha......you are really something:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:36 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:24 pm
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Location: Western Colorado
upland refugee wrote:
moishepipick wrote:
Relying on the operator to not make a mistake is fine, but not as fine as a method that more closely approaches fail-safe or as we used to call it in less politically correct times, foolproof. An open O/U more closely approaches foolproof than the other options being discussed here.


The grave and unavoidable flaw in this type of reasoning is that you are okay with lessening the serious and mortal responsibility of the individual firearm operator and substituting it with that of an inanimate object that you believe to be more safe than other types of inanimate objects. You can’t have any discussion about gun safety without acknowledging the central role of human action and decision-making (or lack thereof) in the outcome of a single trigger pull. There is no fail safe or even degrees of fail safe.

Amen. The problems with making everything "idiot proof" are 1) it never really works (see Darwin Awards), and 2) You engender a population of idiots, people who forget that they're responsible and don't pay attention.

upland refugee wrote:
The rules aren’t that difficult here folks: 1) open action and 2) unloaded until on station and ready to shoot. If people can’t make these simple rules work, no type of gun or gadget can help them be safe. The first violation or two is best addressed by prompt, clear, and direct enforcement. After that, expulsion or just refusing to shoot with them is appropriate.

Let's not forget the third rule, which really is the first rule - NEVER point a gun at something you don't want to harm.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:49 am
Posts: 41
Well let me just tell you I think using a top quality semi auto for sporting clays is wonderful. The decrease in felt recoil is a definite plus. Having 2 different chokes is not that much of a benefit.
Put in a light modified choke and just shot with little worry.
As reliability goes they do require more attention and if you are not inclined to clean your firearm with some frequency then an O/U would be a better choice.

As far as jamming goes I can only tell you that my wife and I have 2 Beretta 391 that have had over 60000 rounds between them. Jams have been less than 20 and in each case have been related to defective shells.

Minimal repair cost probably less than $75 per gun over the 15 years they have been in use. Using You Tube all repairs have been done by my wife as I have no mechanical abilities.
Only upgrades have been trigger jobs done by Cole in Maine.

My biggest complaint about a semi auto is picking up shells either for reloading or to keep the course clean. Some courses require you to pick up fired cases and other courses will not let you pick up the hulls--go figure.

I own and enjoy shooting both top quality semi autos and O/U and they all work well. But the more you shoot the more recoil does adversely affect your score.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:26 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:36 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Nebraska
jwgworld wrote:
Let's not forget the third rule, which really is the first rule - NEVER point a gun at something you don't want to harm.


I agree but there are some exceptions here too, like holding on the top of the trap house or the edge of the skeet house window. I’m obviously not going to shoot the house but after having fired tens of thousands of rounds at these games without a single error or accident, I think I am okay holding on these areas as certain stations, visual backgrounds, or shooting conditions may dictate.

And a hyper-literal application of this rule seems to be why several high-schoolers have tried to convince me on the trap line that toe tabs are inherently dangerous and should be replaced with those square rubber mats. Don’t get me started on the anti-toe tab crowd or Scardog will have to tell me to pipe down.

And my apologies Randy, you did NOT suggest the use of chamber indicators for the shotgun sports (“Malcolm7” did), you just clarified what they are.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:59 pm 
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I see Randy is bringing the facts and the charts........even if they are 5 to 6 years old.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:56 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:32 pm
Posts: 58
dogchaser37 wrote:
An open bolt is an open bolt. An open action is an open action.

There is no need for a chamber indicator to futz around with on a sporting clays course.


I don't shoot sporting clays, but on occasion I do use my Beretta 390 to shoot skeet. I don't use a chamber indicator and haven't noticed anyone else using one either. That said, it would seem odd to me if the manufacturer didn't supply one with a new semi shotgun, and maybe they do now as it's been a long time since I bought an auto loading shotgun.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:29 pm
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Location: Central Maine
Litespeed wrote:
dogchaser37 wrote:
An open bolt is an open bolt. An open action is an open action.

There is no need for a chamber indicator to futz around with on a sporting clays course.


I don't shoot sporting clays, but on occasion I do use my Beretta 390 to shoot skeet. I don't use a chamber indicator and haven't noticed anyone else using one either. That said, it would seem odd to me if the manufacturer didn't supply one with a new semi shotgun, and maybe they do now as it's been a long time since I bought an auto loading shotgun.


I have bought two competition dedicated Beretta A400’s in the past 3 years and can tell you neither came with this item

In 11 years competing roughly twice a month I have never seen one on the range. I shoot sporting clays.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:11 pm 
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john391 wrote:
Well let me just tell you I think using a top quality semi auto for sporting clays is wonderful.


Shhh . . . don't tell anyone that.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:58 pm 
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gdub41 wrote:
I see Randy is bringing the facts and the charts........even if they are 5 to 6 years old.


:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:10 pm 
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Location: Western Colorado
upland refugee wrote:
jwgworld wrote:
Let's not forget the third rule, which really is the first rule - NEVER point a gun at something you don't want to harm.


I agree but there are some exceptions here too, like holding on the top of the trap house or the edge of the skeet house window. I’m obviously not going to shoot the house but after having fired tens of thousands of rounds at these games without a single error or accident, I think I am okay holding on these areas as certain stations, visual backgrounds, or shooting conditions may dictate.

And a hyper-literal application of this rule seems to be why several high-schoolers have tried to convince me on the trap line that toe tabs are inherently dangerous and should be replaced with those square rubber mats. Don’t get me started on the anti-toe tab crowd or Scardog will have to tell me to pipe down.

Agreed, especially about the angst that some people experience when seeing someone rest the muzzle of an empty, open gun on his/her foot. Fortunately, everyone I shoot with understands that you can’t hurt yourself with an empty, open gun.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:07 am 
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oyeme wrote:
So my question is why the vast majority of all SC shooters don't use a quality semi auto?


Don't they? Consider that 848,617 shotguns were made in the U.S. (2016), the vast majority of them either Mossberg or Remington. Neither sells any O/U's. In 2018, 713,931 shotguns were imported into the U.S., the largest number (343,392) being from Turkey. It naturally varies from year to year, but even though shotguns are durable goods, over 1.5 million shotguns are purchased every year in the U.S. I'll leave it to others to guess how many shotguns are in active use today.

Yet, the NSCA has around 20,000 members, not necessarily active members, just members. That's about 1.3% of the shotguns sold annually, if that. As a result, when you say "vast majority of all SC shooters" semi-autos are far more popular than anything else.

Whether an individual likes them or not hardly matters: semi-autos are used more for essentially everything in the United States than O/U's, based primarily on cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:34 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:32 pm
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O/U's are cool, perception is everything. Since most of the sponsored guys shoot the high end O/U the wannabes gravitate. Guns are like sneakers and jackets. Put a pair of cheap sneakers on a sports star and the demand and eventually the price increases. Come out with a common jacket and put an astronomical price tag on it and the affluent will latch on and those become fashion/status symbols. I've said for years if I were a gun manufacturer I'd release an Autobanger that retails for $4500 and all the marketing mumbo jumbo that goes with it. Bet you'd see several A400 shooters jump on the train!!


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not A Semi Auto For Sporting Clays?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
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headhunter68 wrote:
O/U's are cool, perception is everything. Since most of the sponsored guys shoot the high end O/U the wannabes gravitate. Guns are like sneakers and jackets. Put a pair of cheap sneakers on a sports star and the demand and eventually the price increases. Come out with a common jacket and put an astronomical price tag on it and the affluent will latch on and those become fashion/status symbols. I've said for years if I were a gun manufacturer I'd release an Autobanger that retails for $4500 and all the marketing mumbo jumbo that goes with it. Bet you'd see several A400 shooters jump on the train!!

I certainly think so...with nice wood of course.



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