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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:07 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3081
I like them both, and the change of pace each brings to the other.

Where FITASC comes out ahead is quality refereeing. The SYO in most Sporting events takes away from it.

It’s hard to please everyone in sporting, but a Kruger type of layout comes close. Have 14 or 15 stations, with 3 or 4 the “you better hit all of these”, and 5 or 6 stations of very technical targets all around 30 to 40 yards, and another 5 or 6 separator types at 45 to 55 yards. Maybe a couple a bit more.




Last edited by Mule Driver on Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:44 am 
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Rooster booster wrote:
winmod21 wrote:
FITASC is definitely my favorite. It’s really the best test of wingshooting skills IMO. This is sacrilegious but sporting has gotten to be like trap to me. Same shots over and over...and don’t miss!


AJ Smith said exactly that quite a few years ago.


You guys need to find a new place to shoot. There is no excuse for not having new presentations and pairs on a regular basis. On two 12 to 14 station courses, the combinations are basically limitless.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:08 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5418
I don’t believe that was the point, certainly not mine. What Smith said many years ago was he tended to lose his sharp mental focus the last pair or two on many presentations. You’re thinking courses not changing their presentations often enough is the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:22 am 
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Rooster booster wrote:
I don’t believe that was the point, certainly not mine. What Smith said many years ago was he tended to lose his sharp mental focus the last pair or two on many presentations. You’re thinking courses not changing their presentations often enough is the issue.


Fair enough. I don't think comparing 4 pairs of targets to trap or skeet is correct. Mental focus is a key component of most sports. Some of us, me included, aren't very good at it.
:oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:05 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:28 am
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Location: Australia
Sporting is great practice for the Formula One of shotgun shooting , FITASC .
The repetition of shooting multiple pairs ( learning the importance of 1 shot per target and transition to the second etc ) is without doubt beneficial.
I’m old enough to remember when the British were light years ahead of every else in their abilities and results.
Years of shooting English Sporting had honed their skills and abilities and everyone else was just play catch-up.
I enjoy shooting Sporting, but Love FITASC .

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 5:55 pm
Posts: 2008
Location: Indiana
You guys need to find a new place to shoot. There is no excuse for not having new presentations and pairs on a regular basis. On two 12 to 14 station courses, the combinations are basically limitless.[/quote]

The club I shoot most weekends change the targets every Saturday afternoon so you get two totally different courses every week. The repetition I spoke of is shooting the same pairs over and over on each station.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:08 pm 
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winmod21 wrote:
You guys need to find a new place to shoot. There is no excuse for not having new presentations and pairs on a regular basis. On two 12 to 14 station courses, the combinations are basically limitless.


The club I shoot most weekends change the targets every Saturday afternoon so you get two totally different courses every week. The repetition I spoke of is shooting the same pairs over and over on each station.[/quote]

Rooster Booster set me straight and I responded above. Shooting 4 pair per station doesn't seem that redundant. For those that find it that way, 5 stand and super sporting address that issue without the complications of FITASC.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:30 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:18 pm
Posts: 68
Location: Akron, Ohio
JonnyRocket wrote:
I will drive a couple hours, give or take, for a registered sporting shoot, but I will travel almost anywhere for 200 birds of competitive FITASC if my schedule can accommodate. I consider it the pinnacle of all target shooting. One of my favorite shoots of the year is the Promatic 500 at Northbrook. Where else can you shoot 500 FITASC targets in 4 days?

Also, sub gauge FITASC side events are a blast. I could shoot 28 gauge FITASC every day of the year.

Anyone else shoot Eagle's Nest last weekend? Dan Bailey and team threw some absolute fantastic FITASC birds.


I was there, I consider Dan’s targets the pinnacle of US FITASC targets. Everybody needs to come and shoot Eagle Nest FITASC Championship!


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:50 pm 
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drawdc wrote:
winmod21 wrote:
You guys need to find a new place to shoot. There is no excuse for not having new presentations and pairs on a regular basis. On two 12 to 14 station courses, the combinations are basically limitless.


The club I shoot most weekends change the targets every Saturday afternoon so you get two totally different courses every week. The repetition I spoke of is shooting the same pairs over and over on each station.


Quote:
Rooster Booster set me straight and I responded above. Shooting 4 pair per station doesn't seem that redundant. For those that find it that way, 5 stand and super sporting address that issue without the complications of FITASC.



What complications? No Crocs? Having to use a low/soft mount?

_________________
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


Last edited by oneounceload on Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:13 pm 
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oneounceload wrote:
drawdc wrote:
winmod21 wrote:
You guys need to find a new place to shoot. There is no excuse for not having new presentations and pairs on a regular basis. On two 12 to 14 station courses, the combinations are basically limitless.


The club I shoot most weekends change the targets every Saturday afternoon so you get two totally different courses every week. The repetition I spoke of is shooting the same pairs over and over on each station.


Rooster Booster set me straight and I responded above. Shooting 4 pair per station doesn't seem that redundant. For those that find it that way, 5 stand and super sporting address that issue without the complications of FITASC.



What complications? No Crocs? Having to use a low/soft mount?[/quote]

Having qualified refs is the problem. Expensive and hard to find, but an absolute necessity given the extra rules. In my opinion, and I am actively involved in running events, it will always be a specialty event in the U.S. If you enjoy it, shoot it when you can.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:26 pm 
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I agree about the refs; however, as expensive as sporting is, the added expense of refs for monthly sporting MIGHT price a bunch of shooters out of the picture...................where I live, monthly SYO runs $75/100, FITASC runs between $130 and $150/100. Now, granted between the refs and limited numbers for FITASC, the cost is understandable, but if you double the monthly sporting costs, I fear a lot might decide that shooting these the day before or after for less is the way to go. I have noticed that since I moved to FL 17 years ago, several clubs have closed and attendance at most have dropped significantly, along with several clubs stopping registered every month and limiting themselves to maybe 6/year. Now, of course, here in FL, the average age is retired and aging........

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The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:34 am 
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Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1032
How does the money work where a 100 bird sporting layout might have 15 trappers and a 100 bird FITASC would be maybe 4? I guess it's just a function of the number of people you can run through in a day?

The subject has come up before and i would not shoot SYO for $75. For that money i'd rather just shoot the course a day later. So the costs that i'm seeing in Maryland and surrounding aren't as different.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:05 am 
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birdhunter39 wrote:
How does the money work where a 100 bird sporting layout might have 15 trappers and a 100 bird FITASC would be maybe 4? I guess it's just a function of the number of people you can run through in a day?

The subject has come up before and i would not shoot SYO for $75. For that money i'd rather just shoot the course a day later. So the costs that i'm seeing in Maryland and surrounding aren't as different.


It is a numbers question. I don't have exact numbers, but in most cases regular sporting will draw 3 to 4 times as many shooters. If you use trappers, you can pay them $8 an hour and train them in a couple of hours. If you are going to throw FITASC, you need to do it right. You need certified refs that make at least twice that and usually need to be paid mileage, lodging, and food. Good FITASC refs are worth it, but the economics don't work for smaller shoots.

I understand the feelings about SYO, but finding and training trappers for many clubs is very difficult. I'm afraid that to keep costs in line, SYO is going to be a fact of life.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:24 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
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$8.00 per hour? You need to pay a decent wage,train and retain. You get what you pay for. $8 per hour is a joke. If you are willing to pay FITASC refs you should be willing to pay Sporting refs a heck of a lot more than $8.00 per hour. Not all FITASC refs need to be certified at non international small shoots. Just holding a credential does not equate to competency.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:46 am 
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lt0026 wrote:
$8.00 per hour? You need to pay a decent wage,train and retain. You get what you pay for. $8 per hour is a joke. If you are willing to pay FITASC refs you should be willing to pay Sporting refs a heck of a lot more than $8.00 per hour. Not all FITASC refs need to be certified at non international small shoots. Just holding a credential does not equate to competency.


Exactly. Around here FITASC refs make at least$150/day for a full day with meals; regular trappers about $100/day plus lunch. Small shoots of less than 50 lose enough money on just the lunch for shooters, let alone food and wages for a lot of trappers.

_________________
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:17 am 
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lt0026 wrote:
$8.00 per hour? You need to pay a decent wage,train and retain. You get what you pay for. $8 per hour is a joke. If you are willing to pay FITASC refs you should be willing to pay Sporting refs a heck of a lot more than $8.00 per hour. Not all FITASC refs need to be certified at non international small shoots. Just holding a credential does not equate to competency.


FITASC refs may not need to be certified, but they need to be competent. They will cost the same.

If you are throwing two courses with a total of 26 stations for 9 hours a day, raising the pay for trappers by $3.00 will add $700 to cost. For 75 shooters that is $9.36 per shooter. Clubs take the risk of how many participants will be there. If the weather is bad and only 50 show up, you still have to pay them. I can also assure that paying extra won't guarantee quality trappers. More remote clubs have trouble finding trappers regardless.

As participants in what is a very small sport, it is important that we understand the economics of the game. If clubs lose money, they will stop having events.

If the price to shoot goes up, I assume you would never complain.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:40 am 
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Are you willing to sacrifice credibility for cost? Please spare me the my friends are tough on me and cheating is no big deal posts. Fun shoots SRO should be just that, no awards or punches. Gotta love it. Some with about 80k total in truck,ATV,trailer and guns cry about an extra $15.00 for a trapper.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:12 am 
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lt0026 wrote:
Are you willing to sacrifice credibility for cost? Please spare me the my friends are tough on me and cheating is no big deal posts. Fun shoots SRO should be just that, no awards or punches. Gotta love it. Some with about 80k total in truck,ATV,trailer and guns cry about an extra $15.00 for a trapper.


No punches, then no NSCA fees either - the folks in S.A. won't like that. The numbers of shooters and clubs throwing NSCA events - at least here in the summer months - is down. Eliminating them altogether might set a precedent we don't want to have.
And not all of us have $80 grand worth of stuff.
But let's say you raise the price by $15 and expect a crowd of 75 shooters - but you only get 50; who makes up that added cost - the club? They're already down about $250 for lunches that won't be bought and now another $375 lost revenue to cover the trappers? Guess how many more registered shoots that club will host - zero.

_________________
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:15 am 
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oneounceload wrote:
lt0026 wrote:
Are you willing to sacrifice credibility for cost? Please spare me the my friends are tough on me and cheating is no big deal posts. Fun shoots SRO should be just that, no awards or punches. Gotta love it. Some with about 80k total in truck,ATV,trailer and guns cry about an extra $15.00 for a trapper.


No punches, then no NSCA fees either - the folks in S.A. won't like that. The numbers of shooters and clubs throwing NSCA events - at least here in the summer months - is down. Eliminating them altogether might set a precedent we don't want to have.
And not all of us have $80 grand worth of stuff.
But let's say you raise the price by $15 and expect a crowd of 75 shooters - but you only get 50; who makes up that added cost - the club? They're already down about $250 for lunches that won't be bought and now another $375 lost revenue to cover the trappers? Guess how many more registered shoots that club will host - zero.


{hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta say i love FITASC over regular sporting.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:30 am 
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Sporting clay's doesn't revolve around registered shooting. Ask any club owner. I would rather costs are cut elsewhere like crappy food and used to pay trappers. Give me good targets and trappers. Skip the food. I can bring my own or go out and eat what I want elsewhere. I don't go shooting for a lunch. Who is "we"? Just as many people stay away from SYO as those that go because of the price. No NSCA fees,no state fees,no lunch, no trophy, no BTC and no scoring fees and I bet the price would still be the same. The clubs are a tax collector for the associations. $15.00 per shoot is a smallest expense you have.




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