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 Post subject: what can we do to support lower class registered shooters???
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:44 am 
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I was playing with the state membership numbers a few weeks ago. I was kind of surprised to see that C-E Class shooters make up 75% of the membership in our state. Then again, if you were to add in the Hunter class, non-registered bird shooters, this number gets huge for our state, and I'm not really surprised at that after all.

So, question is what can the state organization do to support the lower & Hunter class shooters? Looking for some out of the box ideas, or things that have worked at your club or area. The type A competitive guys who travel and rack up 5-10k+ registered birds a year are obviously getting something out of the sport. What about the lower class guys that shoot a few registered fun, charity or league shoots each year? Their membership and involvement is just as important, or more based on their numbers, so what can the organization do to show them some value for their membership? What can member clubs do to increase their volumes and enjoyment of the sport?

The old skeeters or trap shooters are still slowly migrating to Sporting, and especially enjoy the 5stnd when it's set up like Skeet in the Woods, and never changes... So they can remember to look where the targets are coming from. Lets face it, the paying shooters are mostly getting older, the kids enjoy it till college, then mostly move onto other hobbies or realities of life. The youth programs are great, have exploded in numbers, but don't appear to be paying any dividends after kids hit 19-20.

Lets hear some ideas, no matter how far outside the box, or into left field....




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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:51 am 
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Location: Port St Lucie FL
cafowler1000 wrote:
I was playing with the state membership numbers a few weeks ago. I was kind of surprised to see that C-E Class shooters make up 75% of the membership in our state. Then again, if you were to add in the Hunter class, non-registered bird shooters, this number gets huge for our state, and I'm not really surprised at that after all.

So, question is what can the state organization do to support the lower & Hunter class shooters? Looking for some out of the box ideas, or things that have worked at your club or area. The type A competitive guys who travel and rack up 5-10k+ registered birds a year are obviously getting something out of the sport. What about the lower class guys that shoot a few registered fun, charity or league shoots each year? Their membership and involvement is just as important, or more based on their numbers, so what can the organization do to show them some value for their membership? What can member clubs do to increase their volumes and enjoyment of the sport?

The old skeeters or trap shooters are still slowly migrating to Sporting, and especially enjoy the 5stnd when it's set up like Skeet in the Woods, and never changes... So they can remember to look where the targets are coming from. Lets face it, the paying shooters are mostly getting older, the kids enjoy it till college, then mostly move onto other hobbies or realities of life. The youth programs are great, have exploded in numbers, but don't appear to be paying any dividends after kids hit 19-20.

Lets hear some ideas, no matter how far outside the box, or into left field....


Start by coming up with a better term than "lower class " shooters. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:16 am 
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It's all about retention. How many drop out after the free membership expires?


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 Post subject: what can we do to support lower class registered shooters???
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:44 am 
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I may be low class but ....ah hell I can’t think of anything , I’m just low class. lol

How about letting us all into Master Class?

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:05 am 
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Depends on what you mean by "support."

If you mean help folks enjoy the day, then be pleasant and welcoming.
If you are using the NSCA definition, i.e., "get them to shoot more registered targets," probably not much.

Registered shooters seem to self-select into basically two groups:

1) Competitors - Per Sera there are about 8k in a total NSCA membership of plus or minus 35k. These folks work at the game, shoot a lot, travel, and move up through the classes. Among really high volume shooters, about 2/3 are Master Class.

2) Social - They shoot registered targets, but only occasionally; it is a hobby, not a passion. Classes probably don't mean much to them, and the typical member of this group probably isn't consciously competing with anybody - except maybe his brother-in-law to determine who buys the beer on the way home.

You don't need to do anything to encourage competitors to shoot frequently, and nothing that you do is likely to turn a social shooter into a competitor. Which group you are in is probably mostly about hard wiring.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:20 am 
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dcblvsh2 wrote:
I may be low class but ....ah hell I can’t think of anything , I’m just low class. lol

How about letting us all into Master Class?



:lol: :lol: :lol: same here :) {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:23 am 
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mwr01 wrote:
Depends on what you mean by "support."

If you mean help folks enjoy the day, then be pleasant and welcoming.
If you are using the NSCA definition, i.e., "get them to shoot more registered targets," probably not much.

Registered shooters seem to self-select into basically two groups:

1) Competitors - Per Sera there are about 8k in a total NSCA membership of plus or minus 35k. These folks work at the game, shoot a lot, travel, and move up through the classes. Among really high volume shooters, about 2/3 are Master Class.

2) Social - They shoot registered targets, but only occasionally; it is a hobby, not a passion. Classes probably don't mean much to them, and the typical member of this group probably isn't consciously competing with anybody - except maybe his brother-in-law to determine who buys the beer on the way home.

You don't need to do anything to encourage competitors to shoot frequently, and nothing that you do is likely to turn a social shooter into a competitor. Which group you are in is probably mostly about hard wiring.


:) Covers it quite well {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:23 am 
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The free memberships inflate the E,D and C class. Especially when under the old rule you moved up from D to C if you got a punch early on. So you have people trying something out that's new to them. You normally loose 20-30% for lack of further interest or cost.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:40 am 
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"So, question is what can" ? I do to promote "newer" shooters:

Here's what I have tried in the past and have had good results. When you see a "newer" shooter or someone you may or may not know, struggle with a target because they just don't know how or where to look at it, give them a little help.

I always ask if they'd like a little tip on a target they just missed. Rarely do they decline!

If you can help a little bit and they break more targets throughout the shoot, they will have a better time and may become a friend in the process!

I don't know of a single shooter that has not gotten a little help in this game, me included!

pk


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:49 am 
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If you want to support the lower classes, my suggestion is to actively upclass the shooters to their proper levels. When you regularly see posted scores that show upper 80's and low 90's in C, D & E Classes, it is not helpful to those who are just starting their journeys up through the ranks.

How can D-C Class shooters, just starting out or learning the ropes, get punches when the very good shooters are beating their brains out with scores typical of AA or A Class? This is not only discouraging to those in the lower classes, but it also scares many away from joining NSCA or shooting tournaments.

If you are posting scores typical of the upper classes, do yourself and all others a favor and self-declare to where you belong! If you need help deciding on what class to upgrade to, call the staffers at NSCA who can look at your record and make great recommendations.

The clubs posting these outrageous scores should also approach and encourage these misplaced shooters about moving up due to "known abilities."

JMHO,

Demi

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:04 am 
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Island Shooter wrote:
If you want to support the lower classes, my suggestion is to actively upclass the shooters to their proper levels. When you regularly see posted scores that show upper 80's and low 90's in C, D & E Classes, it is not helpful to those who are just starting their journeys up through the ranks.

How can D-C Class shooters, just starting out or learning the ropes, get punches when the very good shooters are beating their brains out with scores typical of AA or A Class? This is not only discouraging to those in the lower classes, but it also scares many away from joining NSCA or shooting tournaments.

If you are posting scores typical of the upper classes, do yourself and all others a favor and self-declare to where you belong! If you need help deciding on what class to upgrade to, call the staffers at NSCA who can look at your record and make great recommendations.

JMHO,

Demi


Demi nailed it IMO {hs# I shot in a several (local) NSCA shoots over a few years and decided early this year what's the point? In my area East TX I would (from looking at the overall scores) after a shoot and to even get a sniff of a punch I needed to have shot AA or low M class scores. Those folks would move up quick then another new batch would join and the unending cycle would begin again.

So now instead of competing I work/help at my local Club with their monthly shoots and get more satisfaction from doing that than basically handing my entry fee's to someone :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:07 am 
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Location: Blountville, TN
Island Shooter wrote:
If you want to support the lower classes, my suggestion is to actively upclass the shooters to their proper levels. When you regularly see posted scores that show upper 80's and low 90's in C, D & E Classes, it is not helpful to those who are just starting their journeys up through the ranks.

How can D-C Class shooters, just starting out or learning the ropes, get punches when the very good shooters are beating their brains out with scores typical of AA or A Class? This is not only discouraging to those in the lower classes, but it also scares many away from joining NSCA or shooting tournaments.

If you are posting scores typical of the upper classes, do yourself and all others a favor and self-declare to where you belong! If you need help deciding on what class to upgrade to, call the staffers at NSCA who can look at your record and make great recommendations.

The clubs posting these outrageous scores should also approach and encourage these misplaced shooters about moving up due to "known abilities."

JMHO,

Demi

Great comment! This type of misclassing most often occurs at smaller shoots were beginners are giving it a try. Talk about bad timing. At larger events, the scores look more reasonable in the classes.
bc

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:11 am 
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Hold a mentored shoot early in the season. New shooters and hunter class paired with an experienced shooter who coaches, explains rules, and acts as a host. Then after the shoot, hold a mentor/mentee only dinner / social hour. Have each new shooter introduce themselves and where they live. That way they can find / know about others near them to shoot with to continue on after mentor goes back to shooting with his regular guys. Have the registration open so they can sign up for the next shoot with another new shooter. Consider giving the mentor a punch if they bring in x number of new shooters and do not shoot the course and instead focus 100% of there energy on working with the new shooters.

My summer club has a women’s only league and each team gets a free experienced good shooter who does not shoot, but merely helps the shooters hit more targets by coaching, know/explain the rules, and act in a safe manner. It’s a well received league that the ladies really enjoy. I’m thinking of wearing a wig on tuesdays for the free lessons! :D


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:19 am 
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There are many items that have been brought up, and all make sense.

IMO, its cost. The social (as mentioned) will shoot.....but may not if a fishing trip, backyard bbq or something else is available. Depending on who he/she likes to shoot with is attending, and if the other activity has more value. Cost plays into this.

There are shooters that want to compete. When they see what it takes, cost involved they have to ask themselves.....what am I willing to give up? Ex: I have a friend that loves to shoot, loves to hunt, and is very competitive. She signed up, shot 4-5 tournaments. Loved it. Did well. Was treated well, respect on the course. Loved being challenged. Did not want the cupcakes. After the year, had a discussion with me....was having a hard time justifying the cost, particularly with her husband. He likes to shoot, but the social guy and has zero desire to compete. So.....no longer competes. Not saying right, not saying wrong, just saying.

Helping people on the course is fine, always willing to help. But thats a double edge sword as at times you get the blind leading the blind. And a lot of guys don't understand that a lot of gals will accept help, but they really don't want it. Its pretty hard for a lot of gals to get started, especially when it seems like every guy on the course is watching and looking for the opportunity to "help".

As mentioned, I have no idea if I were 20, how I could stay in the game as I am now. Lots of life learning to be had. And even retired at 62, there are things I don't do to stay in it. Choices I've made.

Knowing your audience...targets, activities, all play into it. But it boils down to cost. Local range a few years ago started discount pricing for juniors, and the results show. Proper classing? Sure. The more ranges can make a shoot a experience, and not just an activity without increasing cost would make a difference. Thats a challenge....but one thing that always irks me, is when I feel that everytime I turn around my pocket is getting picked. That is, another thread.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:31 am 
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The clubs can enforce known ability but almost never do. A delegate can also ask for a shooter to undergo a classification review but rarely do. Inflated scores at shoots has become worse with the proliferation of SYO fun shoots. Why would people pay extra to compete if the game has no credibility? Most sandbaggers aren't going to be nice and declare up. And then you have the folks that degrade people for declaring up "without earning it." And this year they dropped the minimum target requirements for the big shoots. Watch the sandbaggers come out now. It's all about the $$$. Has nothing to do with a level playing field.


Last edited by lt0026 on Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:36 am 
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I don't think there has been any real growth since I was on the Board 10+ yrs back.

Most of the big shoots are aimed at the top shooters and the rest are expected to shut their mouths and just take a whipping.

The club owner/mgrs do not stay active in assessing shooters to level out the classes. No one else is entitled to.

SYO is here to stay and this under-mines the integrity of shoots.

Some dumb-asses , like me , want to shoot new targets that have not been practiced before the day of the tournament and are satisfied by getting to do this once or twice a month.

"we" have not fixed this for 20+ yrs and it's worse now. If you don't get anything out of it , you won't shoot or golf or go curling.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:41 am 
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Any game that has anything to do with a firearm is a non starter for the majority of people in this country. Before you worry about cost, scores and punches you probably should be more worried about the next election. It goes a certain way they might have you shooting sporting arrows, maybe.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:05 am 
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ebcjr wrote:
Island Shooter wrote:
If you want to support the lower classes, my suggestion is to actively upclass the shooters to their proper levels. When you regularly see posted scores that show upper 80's and low 90's in C, D & E Classes, it is not helpful to those who are just starting their journeys up through the ranks.

How can D-C Class shooters, just starting out or learning the ropes, get punches when the very good shooters are beating their brains out with scores typical of AA or A Class? This is not only discouraging to those in the lower classes, but it also scares many away from joining NSCA or shooting tournaments.

If you are posting scores typical of the upper classes, do yourself and all others a favor and self-declare to where you belong! If you need help deciding on what class to upgrade to, call the staffers at NSCA who can look at your record and make great recommendations.

The clubs posting these outrageous scores should also approach and encourage these misplaced shooters about moving up due to "known abilities."

JMHO,

Demi

Great comment! This type of misclassing most often occurs at smaller shoots were beginners are giving it a try. Talk about bad timing. At larger events, the scores look more reasonable in the classes.
bc


Actually, it is common in registered events, large and small. There are bunches of local hotshot "C's" and "D's" at majors. The targets are tougher than at local events; so, they shoot class-typical scores (mid-70's) instead of the mid to high-80's that they post at home. Look at any Major; "D" and "C" are always won with a score that would have been solidly in the middle of "AA." The real "C" and "D" (and maybe "B") shooters are still in the bottom half of their classes.

As Lt. noted, there are rules (known ability/declare) to address the problem, but, for whatever reasons, they are not enforced/applied. Undoubtedly, some folks are discouraged by systematic misclassification, and they opt out of registered. I've no idea how large that group may be.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:19 am 
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At the end of the day, it's just a very difficult game to balance while maintaining a "normal" family life...

I think Jerry summed the issue up well: shooters wanting to matriculate up don't like paying their money and never sniffing a punch because of a couple hot-rod upstarts in the mix ----- and there's always hot-rod upstarts in the mix... Unfortunately the only cure for that is for the shooter to practice more, harder and better so that they can become the hot-rod in that class, matriculate up, and do it all again. There is no shortcut, no magic beans, no perfect load, choke or gun. There is only putting in the work; and that work costs not only money, but time...

So coming around full circle, it comes down to exactly what Scott said above: time, money, desire and commitment; all of which come at the cost of limiting something else in your life.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:53 am 
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{hs#
dcblvsh2 wrote:
I may be low class but ....ah hell I can’t think of anything , I’m just low class. lol

How about letting us all into Master Class?


{hs# :lol:
Good one!




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